SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

After nonstop reading, researching, doom-scrolling, and journaling, I've decided it's time I join the conversation with my story, with the hopes that even just a few other perspectives might give me peace in the decisions I'm leaning toward.

I'll start with the background of our relationship, because frankly, I think it's necessary to understanding some of the confusing factors. Every relationship is unique, and I'm not trying to somehow claim "...but we're special/different!", but hopefully just to fill in some of the emotional gaps and rationale behind how I'm processing things.

We met and started dating at 17 years old - I was her first "real" boyfriend (apart from a few small encounters with other boys and girls she had throughout her high school years, none of them more sexual than "2nd base"), and her first and only sexual partner, in terms of actual intercourse.

I was blessed to come from a stable, loving family and solid emotional background.
She, however, was not blessed with the same. Her parents were divorced when she was only a few years old. Her mother was downright neglectful and an alcoholic, and her father SA'd and manipulated her, slept in bed with her since the basement apartment with no windows, a pest problem, and the bathroom in the kitchen, only had one bed, which they shared until she was a teen.

Both parents were emotionally abusive, to extreme degrees. This lead to "wires being crossed" when it comes to physical touch being registered as "love", among a slew of other issues that only increased as our relationship progressed, and her parent's abuses not only resurfaced as she faced those past truths, but grew substantially as those parents only continued to deepen the emotional abuse and neglect throughout our time together.

During this time, me and my family welcomed her into our home. She watched my brother enter high school, graduate, go to college, then graduate college - she was an older sister to him. My father helped her navigate college finances. My mother provided her the support she never received from her own. Our lives became absolutely enmeshed - because quite frankly, the situation she would've otherwise been in would've been (and was) both unhealthy physically, and emotionally. Hardly conducive to growing up, let alone showing up in a healthy way in a relationship.

We navigated ups and downs as we grew up. College and shortly after was difficult - she had some behind my back flirting with other guys, but never acted on any of them. And, bluntly, my behavior toward her back then absolutely did play a part in pushing her to at least look outside the relationship. I was controlling, paranoid, and angry at the world. That caused her to develop resentment toward me, which, while her method of reacting to it was also inappropriate in pursuing other men while remaining in the relationship, was certainly contributed to by my own poor behavior in not treating her right.

After we left college and began our young adult lives, I very seriously reexamined the type of relationship I wanted, and the way I wanted to show up in it for the person I loved. I had the hard conversations, did the work, and our entire relationship dynamic changed for the better. COVID lockdown hit, and we not only survived being stuck in a 1 bedroom apartment together, we thrived! Our time together had never been better, and we both to this day look back on that time fondly. Since the beginning, we've always been able to share time together in silence, share music, art, food, etc, and converse endlessly without ever running out of things to say. Without sounding overly sappy, we truly felt like each others' soulmates. With every passing year we never became less interesting to one another, or felt less strongly - in fact, the opposite happened. We grew closer, and closer.

After COVID, her half-sister (both parents were married and divorced twice, so she has half-siblings on both sides she grew up with, but is technically an "only child" of her parents, who subsequently separated when she was extremely young also) was diagnosed with stage 4 colorectal cancer. This is the only other female sibling she has, and specifically the only other female child of her father's. After her diagnosis, her doctor had told her to "go be with family", because the outlook was that dire. She took the advice and moved to be closer to the father, despite him also being abusive toward her (though in a far less severe way than toward my wife). Her father advocated for her sister to choose death rather than life-saving surgery that would've left her with an ostomy bag, because "it would make her hideous". My wife needed to call her and be the only person to convince her to pick the surgery, and that life is worth living. My wife and her half-sister weren't particularly close given the gigantic age gap, but she saw it as an almost "self-insert" way to address her trauma of her father, and potentially bond with the only other woman in her life she felt she might be able to look up to and bond with. She had never told anyone other than me the story of her father's abuse, and wanted to connect with the sister to try to give her the confidence to leave the father's control to feel happy choosing life, and potentially form a familial bond between the two of them through that vulnerability.

Unfortunately, this was met with more abuse - this time, at the hands of the very person she was pouring her soul out to take care of. The sister never even gave the opportunity for connection, and both during and after her treatment/surgery, did nothing but scream, abuse, and degrade my wife - despite her travelling across the country to care for her post-surgery, because the rest of the family refused. And instead of crediting the call my wife made to convince her to get the surgery (which was weeks of emotional turmoil on her end to even formulate), she credited a discovery channel documentary with her inspiration to choose life... I'm significantly truncating this section, but I witnessed a lot of it firsthand since I travelled there as well, and believe me when I say, even I was traumatized by the abuse and treatment I witnessed happening to her from everyone involved. Throughout this entire period, my wife was horrible to me, though. Mean, cruel, frequent insults, criticisms, etc - but I accepted them as the venting of a person who's entire life is crumbling in a truly traumatic way. She couldn't push back against the way they were treating her, so she pushed back against the one person she knew would take it: me. It hurt, but I didn't want to hold the behavior completely against her, as frankly, I truly don't know how I would've acted in the scenario she was faced with.

Following this extremely traumatic familial experience, my wife elected to cut ties with them. Shortly after, we took a month-long vacation.

I'll digress momentarily to explain that throughout this, and across our entire relationship, we had been exploring sexuality. By this, I mean she's an extremely sexual individual - wants to try everything, experience everything, and has a drive that's borderline insatiable. Which sounds amazing, and to a high school boy, sure was, over time it become an extreme challenge to both keep up with, and satisfy - a challenge I simply wasn't able to meet to the extent she had hoped for. Our dynamic is as Dom/sub, with me being the former. I'm a cisgendered hetrosexual man, who would identify as monogamous* (with some unique exceptions I'll get into). She would describe herself as cisgendered but pansexual, and would describe herself as a "switch" outside of our relationship (in which she's only submissive). This is a large aspect of our sexual life, though not the entirety - and we are not / were not in a "24/7" dynamic at all, nor did either of us want that. Simply put, we wanted to explore novel experiences. However, since we began dating, she expressed frustration over my monogamy, and even at one point expressed frustration over feeling like polyamory is the only "ethical" choice, and anyone monogamous is only doing it out of a societal/religious rationale rather than a "human" one. We discussed this extensively - though she had always made it clear she was sacrificing a "part of herself" to remain in a relationship with me.

Back to the vacation. With the context above being known, and with her fresh off of her talking about how she had been stripped of agency and a feeling of selfhood from her trip to support her half-sister, I decided to ask her whether or not a consensual experience with another person (and me) would be something that would make her feel respected, "seen", and "alive again" - she expressed that it would, and told me this was one of the most meaningful things I could've done for her. This person we both knew, lived in the city we were vacationing to, and at this point we had established ourselves in a "scene" as creators, so this other photographer we both conversed with and respected was open to collaborating with us. This had previously been a boundary of mine, but after a lot of soul searching, I realized it wasn't in the way I had thought. Provided there were a lot of other conditions/factors pertaining to the "scene" and dynamic, I was comfortable with the encounter - it was something we could do together, but with another involved. Basically, I was able to compartmentalize our BDSM/"scene" play from that of our intimate emotional relationship (something she had, since day one, expressed was how she operated - and that this sort of engagement would in no way impact our relationship, as she explained it was a physical thrill for her in that context, not an emotional one).

We went, actually did have a good time, then walked home together, with her "...feeling closer to me than ever before". The next day, we bonded even more deeply as we reflected on the experience, which ended in an overwhelming experience for her sobbing and professing that how close she felt to me legitimately hurt and scared her.
The next day, she woke up, sent the other guy a message to coordinate an affair, then promptly deleted it, woke me up, and told me right away. This was crushing for me, as she proceeded to calmly tell me she wanted to exit the relationship and pursue a life like the one this other guy had. This passed after a day or two, and she "snapped back" into what she was like before, wanted to stay in the relationship. She fully expressed that this urge was one of self-destruction, and of feeling so helpless to help her sister that she was a "failure" who deserved to feel badly, and pursue a life of hedonism that she knew would end in an abrupt but romantic metaphorical car crash.

The next few months, she sought therapy from a psychiatrist. Received a diagnosis of CPTSD, major depressive disorder, and anxiety. Also, suspected ASD, but she can't afford the adult test (10k) for a formal diagnosis. Then, my father was diagnosed with stage 4 lymphoma shortly after. We had barely gotten past the trauma of her sister, this sexual experience, and her diagnoses, when the hardest call of my entire life hit. I hoped she would support me similarly to how I did with her and her sister - however, this was also when her depression and CPTSD was still unmanaged, and she struggled to even be kind/nice to me throughout the process of my dad's chemo treatments, as I was struggling with the emotional weight of possibly coming to terms with losing my dad within the year. After months of misery for us both (for different reasons), she had a psychotic breakdown where she experienced an intense paranoid delusion that I was manipulating and harming her, resulting in another split and a text-based pursuit of another guy who was promising her a 24/7 thing. We spent weeks apart, and she realized during that time and through therapy that she didn't want that or him, that it was an escapist fantasy, and we reconciled. Her psychiatrist also diagnosed her following this episode with paranoid personality disorder, which, compounded with CPTSD, contributes greatly to these moments of extreme self-doubt, escapism, and a complete lack of "knowing who she is".

My dad thankfully recovered - though she felt immense guilt over not being able to support me (or him) throughout the process, which has only further deepened the lack of sense of self, and self esteem. I also lost a close friend in this time, of whom I had not been there for as much as I should've due to the emotional weight of everything happening to me at the time. She also was aware that at some level, she contributed to this - which yet again, lowered an already impossibly low self esteem.

However, despite all this, the past year has been that of some of the most meaningful growth of our entire 14 years together. Instead of wallowing in self-pity and giving into codependence, she got a new job, made new friends, developed healthier habits, and began showing up for us both in a more meaningful way. We connected more, and while there were still ups and downs, the trajectory of managing her CPTSD and other mental illnesses were clearly improving. Our lives were improving - more than at any point ever before.

We went on vacation to the same city again, this time with the hope to reengage with the same guy mentioned earlier and his now-wife. My wife was excited, but nervous, because while she desperately wanted these experiences to 'feel alive' and have some of her more "difficult for one person to satisfy" needs met again, was still paranoid over the mistrust in whether or not "she" really wanted it, or if there were outside factors pushing her into it (there were not). We had those experiences, and she absolutely loved them - much more so than I did.
In fact, upon returning, I mentioned I felt the relationship maybe should be reexamined, as I was feeling sidelined and increasingly invisible as she developed more confidence and enthusiasm for everything outside of me, both on a sexual and interpersonal front. She passionately argued me back into the relationship, expressing a desire to make me feel "seen" and have my needs met, and provided meaningful solutions that addressed my concerns head-on.

Two days later, she kisses me, tells me she loves me, and goes to meet with a trans-woman friend she made before we left on this vacation. I know this person, and we all have gotten drinks together before, and while this person had expressed an interest in the BDSM side of our relationship, I trusted my wife to speak open and honestly with me about any feelings or interests, as that's been how we've operated and how we're able to navigate the things we partake in on vacation. Which, again, we had only flown home from two days prior.

After coming home a few hours later, she tells me "I need to tell you something. I kissed (AP/transwoman friend)". I was shocked. I asked for some more details and she started explaining that it was just a kiss and she hoped we could "talk about it and work it out", but this was a boundary for me, and I couldn't believe the betrayal. I could tell she was still a little drunk and a little high. I told her to pack and leave, that we couldn't cohabitate. I also didn't ask for much elaboration, but she also didn't offer any, as she immediately fell to her knees and started sobbing once she understood what she threw away.
The next day, she gave me more details when I said I didn't believe it was only a small goodbye smooch - she immediately told me more.

Turns out, she had kissed AP goodbye before we went on vacation (that she initiated), and kept it from me the whole month. That was apparently a quick goodbye kiss (not open-mouth), and she texted AP after that "she didn't want to leave" (but told me she knew then that was a lie, but didn't want to make it awkward, and wasn't sure what she was feeling at that point, and didn't want to slam the door on it yet). She said the motivation for this kiss was due to fear over what the result would be from our experiences on vacation (since last time it lead to her breaking down and losing control, as explained above).

Upon returning, she said she "needed to see if what she felt was real", and wanted to both feel "in control", and "what it was like to be on the receiving end of what I'm like with [vacation guy we engage with] - also, a chance to explore being a Dom". They went out to dinner, then to a bar, then back to AP's apartment. There, my WW asked for "discretion" (for AP not to tell me), and they started smoking weed, because my WW wanted to get in the mood, because she realized she didn't feel any of the excitement or butterflies like the did with the goodbye kiss a month earlier. Apparently, she decided "she needed to find out how she felt once and for all so she could stop putting herself through the cycle of not knowing who she is, and to see if she's the type of person who can have these interactions", since she had spent years telling me this was how she operated, and me constantly telling her not to pursue these feelings since they were incompatible with our relationship. She wanted to find out "who she really was", because she was fearful and resentful that me and our relationship formed so early on, before she had any other sexual experiences, and that clashed with who she envisioned she'd become as an adult. She knew this tug-of-war had been a near constant aspect of our relationship, and this time mustered up the determination to essentially "find out once and for all".

They initially started to make out, before my WW said she felt uncomfortable since it was in front of the windows of the apartment. The AP then suggested they go upstairs into their bedroom, where my WW took off the AP's skirt and top, down to their underwear, and my WW took off her skirt but not her top. They then got on top of the bed's covers, and cuddled/made out briefly, before my WW broke into tears and said she couldn't do it. She said it was at that point I came rushing back into her mind, and she felt horrible and realized what an awful mistake she was making. She realized that she finally had what she had been arguing for throughout our relationship, and now that it was in front of her, she didn't want it - and just wanted to "come home" to me. They then went back downstairs, where my WW tried making out again because she "was at this point panicking", didn't want the AP to feel body dysmorphia or uncomfortable since they were apparently visibly and verbally frustrated and annoyed, but my WW started crying again, then called an uber home, came through the door, and told me before she had a chance to take her shoes off or put her bag down.

I know the "it's never just a kiss" trope, but frankly, given the extreme level of detail, the fact I verified the timeline (and it stayed consistent across multiple days, after day 2 when we had a chance to talk when she wasn't still a bit drunk and high), and the fact she gave me the full timeline at a point where she didn't believe there was any chance of reconciliation, I do actually believe her that it was. From how she described it, it was an awkward experience - primarily because she couldn't be the person she thought she was all along. She also insists it didn't go past "1st base" - no touching of any genitals, or any sexual touch whatsoever. Again, while of course I'm questioning everything right now and finding it difficult to trust someone who's proven themselves untrustworthy, I do legitimately think she's telling the truth here.

From how this whole scenario was described to me by her, and from her conversation with her psychiatrist (who also is mine), this seems like it was a legitimate critical inflection point that "resolved" what had been years' worth of self-doubt, doubt toward me and the relationship, and the belief that she wasn't living the life she was "supposed" to lead, based on her childhood views of what her adult life would be like.

Here's what I'm struggling with:

Firstly, keeping the initial kiss from me for a month while we were on vacation is the only time she's ever kept something like this from me - every other time I was told day-of. I know I'll get a "that you know of!" reply, but truly, she's generally quite bad at lying and frankly hasn't even had that many opportunities within our relationship where I either don't know where she is, or if she isn't with mutual friends I trust (AP is a new friend as of only a few months - the only new friend or acquaintance of either of ours for years).

Secondly, the fact I do genuinely believe her account of the events. She's been forthcoming, hasn't one time blamed me, and has completely and totally taken accountability from the moment she told me about this scenario. She's been willing to provide a concrete list of mandatory changes, and has heard out every bit of my complaints every step along the way. She's been willing to answer any and all questions I have as well, down to embarrassing details. Given the way she communicates (see the above suspected ASD), while my trust in her is broken, I do believe she's telling me the truth, despite having good reason not to.

Thirdly, the degree to which she cheated is something that personally I feel I do have to be honest with myself over. We've done more physically engaging things with other people on our vacations, and kissing by comparison is rather tame. But, it is still a boundary I had, and was done behind my back.

We've spoken via phone, text, and in-person since D-Day, despite separating and living apart. She's accepted whatever decision I make, though she's been genuinely working to try to move forward with "relationship 2.0", acknowledging that the old relationship is gone, and person she used to be must die in order for that to happen. She insists she is willing to wait however long it takes for me to feel comfortable again - months, or years. In or outside of a relationship together, to earn me and my trust back.

I asked her if she felt the AP just wasn't "the right person" or not attractive enough and that's why it was awkward and she didn't go further, but she assured me it wasn't the case. Given what I know about the background of that friendship and her perspective on the AP (prior to them becoming the AP), I believe this is true.

Ultimately, I have to admit there was a small part of me that thought something like this might eventually happen. The CPTSD, the complete and total lack of self-esteem, and desire for escapism seemed to be omnipresent, even if the past year was good. In fact, the better our relationship and lives seemed to get, the more prone to self-sabotage she became - it always correlated with these sorts of "boil over" events. But, never close to this scale, and nothing resulting in the separation and turmoil that's been the last few weeks.

I don't want to be a fool in thinking "...but this time it will be different!" - but, it already is different, simply due to the facts of the scenario we're in. Her accountability, genuine, heartfelt remorse, transparency, and our 14-year history of a relationship that persisted from our teenage years, leads me to still believe that while I might not have seen THIS coming, I do still know her well enough to tell when she's not telling the full truth. I legitimately do believe, even if I might be a poor fool in doing so, that it really stopped at kissing. It might've brought her peace in knowing that our relationship WAS real, and wasn't either a fabrication, something she was groomed into (by basically being with me since 17 and being raised to a degree by me and my family), or something I stayed in because she provided certain sexual fantasies (another fear of hers, feeling like someone "as good as me" would never be in a relationship with someone "as difficult and with as much baggage as her") - but it did so at my expense, and our relationship's expense.

I've taken countless days and nights to think about all this - spoken with friends, family, and numerous sessions with my therapist. But ultimately, the more I read from folks here, on Reddit, and across Instagram comments on Gottman institute reels and whatnot, the consensus is overwhelmingly "you're a fool if you think it's just kissing, you're a fool if you get back together, you're weak, you're an embarrassment to yourself, you're devaluing yourself/disrespecting yourself and your boundaries, it will happen again because now you've allowed the behavior, they just get better at lying, they'll only escalate further now that they know you accepted this, etc".

I don't think I'm "special", I know everyone here's relationships were sacred and meant the world to them, but I do think our relationship has aspects that complicate some of these rules of thumb. Mental illness, my own poor behavior early on, past resentments, novel sexual experiences and dynamics that step outside the boundaries of normal relationships' limits, etc. I can't help but feel those aspects provide context that's crucial to understanding her mental space, and my own. And while it in no way excuses any behavior, wildly unregulated emotions coupled with intense sexual experiences, with mental illness sprinkled on top, certainly isn't conducive to decision-making that defines a person. I wouldn't want to be judged by my worst decisions, made in a moment of emotional confusion and dysregulation, amplified by a mental illness that specifically makes you doubt your sense of selfhood and the validity of reality around you. And while I won't be able to forget this transgression, I care deeply enough about her and our life together to want to try to forgive, and move forward with a healthier, happier life.

Any words of advice, encouragement, a different perspective, or honest input would be appreciated. I'm also happy to expand upon any aspects - I'm trying to distill a 14-year relationship into one post, because without it, this instance of infidelity feels massively lacking in terms of necessary context - and the context truly does inform why I feel so conflicted, and drawn to trying to reconcile instead of making the equally hard decision to walk away and begin anew.

You can try the polygraph test. Tell her to write out a complete timeline of everything and when she is finished ask her is this everything? If she says yes then ask her if she is willing to take a polygraph test

If her immediate response is yes then there's a chance she told you everything but if she stalls, chances are she didn't

I actually did do exactly this already. Had her write out and send me a full timeline, complete with breakdown minute by minute between when she left, and the hour our ring doorbell cam marked her return. She didn't hesitate in saying that's everything, and she's more than happy to take a polygraph.

I am not a proponent of non-monogamy, so please understand my input is from that vantagepoint. I do believe you were betrayed...definatly.

But I hold the belief the when people take part in the non-monogamous activities like your two did.... that it sends a mixed message somewhere deep within their being. Regardless of the words that you both agree on ... the ACTIONS of allowing your spouse to be with another sexually speaks differently than the words.

And we humans all know how words often are surface level and meaningless. Just like when a wayward and betrayer are trying to reconcile and the betrayers actions do not match the words they claim. The reconciliation fails.

So, in her being, she likely had a much easier time rationalizing what she did, as compared to a truly monogamous couple. After all, you allowed her to do sexual things with another...what she did in secret was just a manner of proximity. And she possibly assumed once she told you, it would blow over rather easily.

Those are just some things to consider.

Going forward, I hope she gets the therapy she needs from her abuse and you two can learn about exclusive monogamy and embrace it.

Reddit only has one piece of advice to give, and sure enough you got it. There seems to be a cohort of people who log onto Reddit everyday to call people who’ve been betrayed fools and chumps.

This site is about surviving infidelity. The prevailing wisdom is that there are two viable ways to do so: reconciliation and divorce, and that there are right ways and wrong ways to go about both. The foregoing sentence may be fairly obvious, but to point an arrow to it, reconciliation is a possibility. And some people have successfully R’d betrayals of breathtaking scope.

A significant portion of the people who post here regularly either R’d or are currently R’ing. Their testimony is, to my eyes, generally as following: it’s very, very hard. It requires two people who are 100% committed to it. It’s risky, with a high chance of failure. But when it works out, it’s worth it.

Just in the past few months, there have been several posters coming here to say that after X years, they’re fully R’d and healed. But also there have been those who’ve reported failures. New betrayals, and in some cases, failures to heal after decades.

Are you a fool for wanting to try to R? No, not if you’re doing it eyes wide open to the challenge you’re facing and to the risks you’re assuming. And I think you appreciate that your WW presents higher than normal risks. Her FOO abuse is extreme. She’s hypersexual and mentally ill.

However, she seems genuinely remorseful and seeking the help she needs. Seems like she’s been fully honest as well, which is also very encouraging.

My biggest concern is that you guys are not on the same page. You want monogamy and she thinks she’s sacrificing part of herself to give you that. That seems like a pretty big compatibility mismatch.

In all events, it’s only been two weeks. You’re allowed to take your time to heal and clear your head. You don’t have to decide one way or another until you’re ready. You’re approaching this very intentionally and that’s a good thing.

I hope no one here is going to judge you over considering trying to salvage a long relationship, where the offence was flat and short lived and your spouse seems really remorseful and willing to make it work. I see great value in how you took care of her and how you have grown together. Personally if my son would ask this, I would tell him to break up if he can, as long as he is young. I have very bad experience with serious mental issues, it seems very rare that people heal from them and they tend to hit hard when it is least convenient. Add to that her persistent strong sexual fantasies and framing you as an obstacle in fulfilling them and the risk of worse things happening seems very high to me. That said it is natural if you decide to go forward with reconcilation and you seem to be well informed and prepared to give it your best shot. If I could recommend something, keep reading. I started reading while trying to do a post mortem of my long gone relationship and I found that it is easier to view the experiences of others from a broader perspective and then apply it to yourself.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 9:51 AM, Monday, July 27th]

Sorry that you're here, ChoosingMyRegrets, but welcome.

My H and I have also been involved in the "scene" and are ENM, with similar kinds of boundaries as yours. I think as long as you make your boundaries perfectly clear, there's no "confusion" excuse when they're broken-- it's just betrayal.

It sounds like your WW has a LOT of healing and recovery to do, and honestly if I were you, I would reserve my trust for probably several years. I don't want to say the same thing as everyone else you've talked to, but with this level of trauma and number of disorders, she's likely to go off the rails with self-sabotaging and unfaithful behavior again.

That is not to say she can never get to a point where she can be a safe partner for you-- she very well might. Just protect your heart, is all, and be prepared for the worst for a long while. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I'm trying to be honest from a wayward perspective, and as someone who also struggled with hyper-sexuality and monogamy in the beginning of my relationship. These kinds of issues are NOT simple to untangle.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:04 PM, Sunday, July 26th]

@WoodThrush2, thank you for your reply and perspective. Admittedly, I felt similarly to you, especially early on. It was my WW that eventually had convinced me to explore those boundaries, which I fully take responsibility for - and, once again admittedly, I found I was okay with, provided conditions were met and adhered to. Frankly, she wasn't able to uphold her end of the bargain, because while I discovered I could engage in this stuff and successfully compartmentalize, she couldn't (despite claiming she could). I do believe your perspective is correct that she did have an easier time rationalizing her actions - and while she didn't think it would blow over easily, she did think it was something "we could talk about and work out". So, ultimately, I think you certainly touched on some aspects that are at play. Thank you!

@Letmebefrank, this reply was extremely meaningful to read - truly, thank you. You're definitely right about that cohort, and while despite knowing that any sane individual wouldn't turn to the groupthink on Reddit to help form their opinions on their own life, reading the same demeaning reply over, and over, and over, certainly does a number on the psyche. Your reply helped bring me back to what feels like a more rational baseline. Betrayal certainly isn't something minor, but slamming doors in an emotional fit doesn't feel like the action of a mature, rational adult either. Making informed decisions about when to keep an option open and find out what the future might bring, versus when it's time to leave based on the totality of events and self-reflection on how I'm truly feeling over time, feels like I'd be able to either stay with my eyes open, or leave with the confidence of knowing I truly took the time to know my peace and find the right answer. I can be proud of myself this way, instead of always asking "what if?" in relation to either option.

I think in my specific case, I've certainly accepted that a life with my WW was going to be a roller coaster. I knew that back when I first found out about her abuse when we were young, and knew that even more following the traumatic experience of her sister's cancer. However, I always maintained that while part of being an upstanding man and a solid life partner is rising to the occasion, even when it's hard, the thing that keeps that sort of support around is commitment to one another. If she stood by me, I'd stand by her no matter the difficulty, no matter the challenge.

One thing she said to me is that she couldn't believe I actually loved her that much, because of how much baggage she has, and how difficult she is to be in a relationship with - that because of all those factors, it was downright impossible for me to be with her because I loved her. Then, add her lack of support throughout my father's cancer, and shortly after that, the loss of a good friend of mine who drank himself to death, and it only further cemented to her the idea that I couldn't possibly be with someone due to "love" who couldn't show up for me in those critical moments. And yet, it was the case. But due to her background and knowledge/experience of "love" in her life, it just completely conflicted with that concept.

Ultimately, while I understand how she arrived at all of this, none of these are excuses. Explanations, sure, but not excuses. I think the explanations at the very least do set my mind a bit more at ease knowing it wasn't an outright act of malice meant to tear me down, or that she truly was seeking an escape from our "real" relationship, but an exercise in control, an escapist backdoor, and a selfish hedging of bets against me actually loving her or not.

In the conversations we've had since, she's insisted that through this experience, she's discovered that she doesn't want non-monogamy. She thought she did, but in pursuing this relationship as far as she did, and having the AP truly at her whim and completely obsessed with her, she realized it made her feel disgusting and that what she spent all this time arguing for, she felt nothing for and didn't want. She said she wants nothing more than to forego all the other sexual experiences for a quiet life of monogamy and time spent together with me.

You're right regarding the time, also - two (going on three) weeks is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of both our relationship up to this point, and to the duration of time that healing will take, should we embark on that journey together. Thank you for your words of encouragement, perspective, and reassurance - they mean the world.

@Itiswhatitis000 Thank you so much for your reply - your perspective here was also extremely centering for me, and meaningful. It's heartening to hear you also felt the offense was rather flat, because one thing I've been struggling with is wondering if I'm messed up somehow for feeling like the "degree" of infidelity (1st base as opposed to 2nd, 3rd, or "all the way") actually does change my perspective and feelings toward it slightly. Still a betrayal, to be sure, but if they had sex I truly don't think I'd feel similarly conflicted as I do now.

The perspective of a father to a son also means a lot. My father has been talking to me throughout this process as well, since I value his opinion and perspective to an immense degree. During his cancer, I had to face a reality that I could be without my father by the end of the year - and that realization broke me. I might be a man in his 30s now, but I realized I wasn't ready to be without a dad. I don't think anyone ever is, but it made me value his level-headedness, and the way he's navigated his life. I aspire to channel his virtues, and look up to him now more than ever. He's of course advocated for me to choose what's right for me, but generally takes a very scientific, analytical approach to things. Particularly, he felt that "more options are better than fewer", and advocated for her to provide concrete solutions, and for me to see where things go - if the required changes are consistently adhered to, keep an open mind, and see how I feel. I might develop peace again, redevelop trust, and feel the love I've worked to keep in my life for 14 years. Or, I may find that love has faded, or that the trust cannot be rebuilt in a way that's necessary to feel safe and secure. But, he felt it would be important for me to feel confident in either decision, that I take the time to let all roads come to fruition fully.

I will take your recommendation - I've been reading many peoples' stories here, and found the similarities very striking. Quite bluntly, the community here simply seems to be more mature, more kind, and more helpful than elsewhere online (ie, Reddit). Whether R or D, the stories and perspectives here simply seem to come from deeply introspective, self-actualized adults, instead of people who are still in the throes of their emotional response to their respective betrayals and seemingly unable to provide any insight other than "once a cheater, always a cheater, have some respect for yourself and GTFO".

@GotTheMorbs Your perspective was one I desperately hoped to hear - thank you so much for taking the time to share yours. Especially since you're also familiar with the other factors present in my scenario. I was profoundly clear with my boundaries - there certainly wasn't a confusion excuse on the part of my WW, she knew fully well before, during, and after that it was betrayal. She said that betrayal was fueled out of the paranoid delusion that I didn't actually love her (as explained above), and thus that her betrayal wouldn't actually hurt me as much as it did, because I only had that "boundary" for the sake of control and subjugation instead of an actual emotional, personal one for myself and the relationship. She was able to convince herself that while this would still break a rule, I'd "just be upset" she broke the rule, but ultimately that I might capitulate because ultimately there wouldn't be an emotional impact.

This is where her paranoia disorder and CPTSD become major, major issues - because they turn what start as paranoid delusions into an accepted reality, and she doesn't get "snapped out of it" until something significant enough forces her out of it. It's profoundly difficult for me to deal with, because it truly almost is like having to be with two different people - one, who's around 99% of the time, believes me fully and knows fully that we love each other. But that 1% that takes over, is so overwhelming, so distrusting, and so fully and completely "bought-in" to the delusion, that there's nothing I can say or do that can convince otherwise. And, since she's specifically fearful of me in that 1%, that I don't know when that "version of her" is in control - because she's hiding it from me, the target of that 1%'s fear and distrust. So I can't see these crashouts coming, and even if I could, there's nothing I could say or do to alter her perception of me, since reality as a whole becomes irrelevant, and the paranoid delusion becomes the one soul source of truth. Unless she can be treated for this, any chance of a relationship is downright impossible. Mental health is never someone's fault, but it is their responsibility.

I definitely don't post here to just be told what I wanted to hear - I wanted honest perspectives from people whose opinions can be informative, helpful, and come from a place of understanding and compassion I wouldn't find elsewhere online. Yours is exactly that. I think you're right - these are massive, massive issues with lifelong ramifications, and my trust absolutely should've been reserved even over these last few years, knowing what I do about the emotional and mental anguish we've both been through. I myself wasn't doing well, and I don't have any of the traumatic background she does - so someone with a laundry list of mental illness, compounded by these confusing emotional and sexual feelings, would absolutely be pushed off the rails in the process. Truly, I should've known better on that front, at least. But, once again, that doesn't excuse the behavior, even if it does provide a helpful framework for understanding how we arrived at this point.

You're certainly right these issues aren't easy to untangle, and that they'll take years of consistent, hard work to do so. Of course, I do still believe she's a fundamentally good person, and hope she can get the help she needs to enjoy her life with confidence and security. I just need to find out if I can still feel safe, confident, and loved enough to want to be able to be by her side, or have hers at mine.

To everyone who has commented, thank you all so much. I'm extremely glad I chose to share my story here, of all places online. I almost didn't post here also, but decided to take a leap of faith. The support you all have shown, and your in-depth replies have significantly helped to calm me down, and let me focus on processing everything with more clarity.

Choosing,

No matter what happens you need to get a lawyer advising you. This doesn’t seem to be someone that you can trust at the moment. You need a few protections in place while you determine how to proceed.

@Sharkman

This certainly already is the case. At least when it comes to the legal front, that side of the scenario is fully controlled. I won't get into the nuances on that front, but rest assured it is a non-factor in dealing with my specific scenario.

Your perspective was one I desperately hoped to hear - thank you so much for taking the time to share yours

I'm glad to hear that and relieved that I wasn't imposing it on you 😅

I was profoundly clear with my boundaries - there certainly wasn't a confusion excuse on the part of my WW, she knew fully well before, during, and after that it was betrayal. She said that betrayal was fueled out of the paranoid delusion that I didn't actually love her (as explained above), and thus that her betrayal wouldn't actually hurt me as much as it did, because I only had that "boundary" for the sake of control and subjugation instead of an actual emotional, personal one for myself and the relationship. She was able to convince herself that while this would still break a rule, I'd "just be upset" she broke the rule, but ultimately that I might capitulate because ultimately there wouldn't be an emotional impact.

Yes, a classic example of how WS rationalize these things to ourselves as we make awful and destructive decisions. It's common to deflect blame by making up stories about our spouse's faults and motivations to relieve the cognitive dissonance of betraying someone who is good and loving to us. I think that not being able to adequately predict the severity of the emotional impact on the BS from the infidelity is also common, especially if a WS is ENM/ASD. It's hard to summon the form of empathy that feels "tangible--" as in, being able to imagine yourself there, immersed in the feelings, without having experienced it yourself (especially if you're in the midst of internal battles and engaging in infidelity and not really wanting to discover that empathy, as you're trying to justify your own choices...)

I hope she is reflecting on all the ways this thinking was flawed, and the mechanisms behind the curtain, so to speak. It is a deep, dark rabbit hole.

And, since she's specifically fearful of me in that 1%, that I don't know when that "version of her" is in control - because she's hiding it from me, the target of that 1%'s fear and distrust. So I can't see these crashouts coming, and even if I could, there's nothing I could say or do to alter her perception of me, since reality as a whole becomes irrelevant, and the paranoid delusion becomes the one soul source of truth.

The first step is recognizing the cycle, which you clearly do. Does she?

The next step is interrupting the cycle, and I think a good place to start would be with radical honesty and transparency, in addition to monitoring by her IC. Can she commit herself to coming to you and being honest with whatever kind of thoughts or feelings she's having at any given time, such that when these delusions are overtaking her, you guys can walk through the evidence that they aren't true together? Can she be perfectly honest with her IC and walk through it with him/her? This way you are forewarned of her mental state/emotional condition, and there is at least a tiny bit of insulation between the feelings and acting impulsively out of delusion. Maybe it would provide a better chance to choose differently next time, and help her remember that you're on her team.

Mental health is never someone's fault, but it is their responsibility.

Print that out and put it on your fridge and/or the bathroom mirror, so you read it daily. Maybe put it on a tee shirt, too. It's a great phrase to repeat if you ever encounter blame-shifting, whether it comes from you or your WW.

I just need to find out if I can still feel safe, confident, and loved enough to want to be able to be by her side, or have hers at mine.

That is a great mindset to have going forward. Don't rush to answer the question; really take your time with it. Best of luck! We'll be here for you.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:53 PM, Monday, July 27th]

@GotTheMorbs

Wow - you actually wrote something she said verbatim a few days ago. Specifically, about ENM/ASD, and finding empathy that feels "tangible". She's mentioned she finds it profoundly hard to know what she feels about something, or how someone else will feel about something, unless she personally has a direct experience. Like, finding out how she felt pursuing this other person and being in the scenario where she could "get what she thought she wanted", only to find out she didn't, finding out if she could repress her feelings about me, finding out what my reaction would be, etc. There've been many instances of this throughout our relationship also, where unless I draw a comparison to an experience I know she had, and explain how I felt similarly, she really struggles to "put herself in someone else's shoes", or even put herself in her own shoes in a hypothetical! Unless it's an actual, real experience she has, she's struggled to "know" how she feels. I'm quite the opposite - I have no problem knowing exactly how I'd feel in hypothetical scenarios, understanding how someone else might feel, etc. She often over-analyzes other people in social scenarios, and is hypervigilant in "scanning" to tell if someone is uncomfortable or feeling a certain way - and sometimes she's right, but others she's wildly off the mark and overthinking to an extreme degree. It's certainly out of fear over missing something or "getting it wrong", since she's always struggled socially throughout life, and resented me for my relative ease on that same front. Either way, it sounds like you have an extremely good read on our scenario, and how my WW functions on a few different levels. This sort of insight is invaluable, especially from an outside perspective, since it's just so fundamentally different from how I operate.

Regarding the cycle - she absolutely identifies it. What's upsetting about this is that generally, she's historically good with the honesty and transparency bit. She's told me when she's been experiencing these delusions, but the problem is that no matter the reassurance or tangible, "real-life" examples of my actions and words, nothing is able to counterbalance the deep sense of doubt and paranoid delusion. The more I say and prove through my actions, the more I'm doubted, because then she convinces herself it's me "doubling down on the act". I've expressed this to her countless times, that I'm truly damned if I do, and damned if I don't. Ultimately, I can't argue my way into trust, or convince her to trust me outside of what I've already done. That's a choice she needed to make, and needs to make, if I even want to begin to try to work at reconciling.

I've definitely clung to that phrase regarding mental health for some time now! Along with, despite my lack of personal religion, the serenity prayer - "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." It's been a lifeline in a sea of uncertainty. I can't change what's happened, and while the courage to change the things I can doesn't include her, or her actions, it does include my perspective and mentality moving forward. I'm trying to keep an open mind, and remain optimistic that if the attraction and emotion is still present, there's an opportunity here to build toward something more mutually beneficial and stronger than before - which, ultimately, wasn't really working for either of us. And while that still doesn't excuse her actions, and we could've worked through those issues without betrayal involved, it at least acknowledges that the future holds a more positive path regardless of whether we travel it together or separately - I'm committed to that, regardless of the outcome. Growth comes from friction, and God knows I've experienced that in droves so far!

And once again, the support shown truly means the world right now - the fact it's from an internet stranger doesn't lessen that fact one bit. Thank you.

[This message edited by ChoosingMyRegrets at 7:23 PM, Monday, July 27th]

That's a choice she needed to make, and needs to make, if I even want to begin to try to work at reconciling.

Exactly. You cannot force her to work on recognizing and remembering the pattern in the moment. You can't do it for her, or come up with mechanisms to help her remember when the delusions arise ahead of time.. That is not your responsibility; it is hers. You are already there for her in a way that takes an enormous amount of love and grace, and hopefully she sees that and appreciates it.