SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I don't think everyone is saying to leave him. I am hearing "don't suffer abuse". That may end up meaning you separate if he will not stop. But if you find your strength to declare this what it is and draw a hard line, he may realize what he is about to lose and snap out of it too.

Glad you are working out, that will help.

If she is a supervisor at work and he isn't, she would be reprimanded for this affair. Or possibly fired.

Did her H’s actions contribute to her messed up state? Certainly. Her choice at that point to pursue FIVE OM is ENTIRELY on her.

It honestly sounds to me like you are both on the same page. OP's state of mind was influenced by her husband's behavior and other stresses in her life, but her decision to cheat was her own, and indefensible.

yes it’s a coworker and she is a supervisor. I have no idea if it’s allowed or not. He tells me they are very careful at work but I do know that two people know for sure. One of those people are upset about what is going on and checks on me

You do know that they both run the risk of losing their jobs because of this. Some companies don't care, but some do. And some women involved in adulterous affairs play the sexual harassment card untruthfully. Are you prepared for your WH to lose his job and possibly face an investigation or criminal charges? This DOES happen.

It's very possible they are fooling around on company time and will get caught.

This really doesn't have a good ending any way you craft it. I would make sure this is a question you ask the attorneys you are going to interview. It's really playing with fire, especially if she is management and doubly so if she is his supervisor.

I've seen extramarital affairs play out in the workplace. Everyone usually knows, as the participants are never as clever as they believe themselves to be.

Cat

That your husband does not want to see an IC does not bode well. What is he afraid to admit? The paradox of your story is that this time around he needs to figure out his issues to show you that he is a safe partner for you. This is usually done in IC. On top of it all he needs to deal with issues related to your affairs which adds another complicated layer to the mix. He needs to understand that he is not only a victim but also the shitty asshole.

Honestly I would not put much hope in MC at this time. Your H is activly in another relationship and has a typical 'cheater' mentality IMO. He is blaming you for this behaviour, being emotionally abusive, making up exuses, breaking your boundries etc.

You are not ready to call it quits and that is ok. Just keep in mind that you do not deserve to be punished for the rest of your life. You need to forgive that part of you that made those horrible choices 5 years ago and celbrate the person who you have become since. Think of it this way. If you were a heavy addict and stole or abused others to get your next fix but made a choice to become sober and worked hard over time to make changes in your life and seek forgivness from those you have harmed... Would that person be worthy of forgivness? Former addicts wear their sobriaty with pride (and they should) and we as society apploud them. Why do we as a society have a hard time to extend the same grace to remorseful former waywards?

@nikomanida I’ve only told him once the reason why I cheated because I don’t want to hurt him anymore. It was wrong no matter what. I do own what I did. I’m horribly disappointed in myself and the guilt is still awful. Especially since this wouldnt be happening if it wasn’t for that.

It's not about what you tell him. I'm sure if you worded it exactly how you did here, it would not have gone over well BUT what I'm posting is about what you tell yourself. It's your internal dialogue that you've shared here that looks to me like a place that you still need to work on. IMO, there's a difference between:

But the reason I did was my husband was not a nice person at the time. Kids and I walked on eggshells when he was home as his job totally changed who he was. He treated us like prisoners in our own home. I didn’t feel safe enough to talk to him.

And something like:

"The reason I cheated is because I lacked the coping skills to handle his moods/unsafe behavior and decided selfishly that this would be better than setting appropriate boundaries and following through on consequences."

The difference is agency and responsibility. If you say he is the reason, you are handing him your agency. You are giving him the responsibility of keeping you happy enough to decide not to cheat. Saying there's no excuse doesn't null that. It handwaves any insight into a flawed perception on it.

What he did was awful and makes him a bad husband - no arguments there. BUT you still have your own agency and you are still the ONLY person responsible for your own happiness. Not him. He handed you a shit sandwich and you crafted one right back for him. He's handing you a shit sandwich and now you're putting yourself back into the position of eating it and suffering which we both know can lead to equally terrible retaliation as per your history and your statement on why you cheated. If you believe he's responsible in any shape or form for what you do when he gives you a shit sandwich, there's nothing stopping you from justifying that retaliation and there's also very little reason for you to turn inwards because according to you, he holds the key to your happiness. Thinking like that will keep you stuck.

I'm not saying you should leave. Unless of course he doesn't stop what he's doing. I do believe he's test driving OW and figuring out how to move over to her. But that doesn't mean you sit back, take it, and keep gently suggesting he goes to IC. Again - that gives him your agency and responsibility. You CAN'T control him. You CAN control you. So that means IC for you. That means detaching emotionally so that you can decide to leave or won't fall to pieces if he leaves. That means getting yourself up to a place where you can demand better from him and set the appropriate boundaries and consequences if he chooses to keep doing you wrong. THAT is the work that you chose not to do when you cheated and it's still sitting undone in front of you right now given your continued responses. You will always be vulnerable to his shit sandwiches even if things work out in your favor this time until you do the work.

Well, I had empathy for you. I felt you had done the work. But you haven't.

And yes my kids MH issues and his mental abuse drove me to what I did

This has to be an all time new low for a WS. I mean, it's common to see a WS blame their BS for cheating. But for a WS to actually blame her children's mental health? What the actual fuck??

Oh,and I have 2 children with severe anxiety and depression. And a narcissistic FWS. So I get how taxing it is on your heart and soul.

But you had options. Instead you chose to have sex with 5 men.

And he is now having sex with one?

Consequences are a bitch.

For you..and him.

@Hellfire I did the deed. I chose the wrong path. No matter what was going on in my life and stressing me out, I shouldn’t have done that. I’m not blaming my kids. Those poor souls have been through it and fight every day. I was just explaining what was going on in my life at the time. And yes, consequences are a bitch.

@neklnamida You made some good points and I am in IC trying to figure out myself but it doesn’t happen quickly but I’m working on it. As I said above to Hellfire, you are right. I am definitely not explaining how I feel very well. He is not the reason I had the A. I am. My awful choices. I should have talked to him or gotten back into therapy back then. That’s on me.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:08 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:21 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

Neko, you are spot on what you just said.

Kel-

I was abused physically and sexually in my teen years which has lead to this need for validation all the time

.

I am sorry for insinuating that you possibly learned your behaviors to cheat from your parents.

Okay, what you said about being sexually and physically abused explains a lot about who you are today.

Who physically and sexually abused you in your teen years?

I understand that you aren't ready to walk away from your WH, that is why I suggested the soft 180 because I know that your emotional and physical state is not good.

One other thing that bothers me about your story is your WH emotional outbursts towards you and your daughters is when things aren't going right for him. And you also stated that all of you feel like you have to walk on eggshells when he is in one of his moods.

That is no way for you to have to live. I also kind of feel like all of this ties into your being physically and sexually abused in your teen years. Somewhere along the line, you built a tolerance up to allow yourself to be mistreated so poorly. At least it seems that way to me. Why is this?

@Hurt he was on edge all the time 5 years back. Since he changed jobs he has been much happier this past year. However, on the rare occasions he gets like that now, yes it’s best to walk away but they are rare.

Yes abuse became normal for me. I was raped by a 16 yr old up the street when I was 11. Then I had a very sexually/physically abusive boyfriend on and off through my high school years.

Please let me be clear on this…my H has never abused me. Has he pushed the boundary…yes he has. Lashed out the wrong way a few times in our marriage? Yes. But overall I feel like he is a good man.

I don’t know. Some days my brain gets mushed. This morning I found her following him on Instagram even though it was a boundary I made very clear. No social media followings because of our kids. He didn’t follow her back but that was like a slap in the face this morning. I don’t know if he doesn’t know she’s following him or if he’s just blatantly disregarding my feelings. I’m almost afraid to ask. He was texting with her one day when we were in the hospital room waiting for our youngest to get a minor procedure done and later I found he was texting her while we were in that room together. I told him I thought it was disrespectful…he disagreed and told me that’s part of his life and he shares his life with her. So because of that I’m afraid to ask why he would allow her to follow him on social media.

I feel like I’m getting mind-fucked every day.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:08 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:21 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

"I feel like I’m getting mind-fucked every day."

OP, gently, you are. None of this is right.

Look, I didn't come at you with the kid gloves before, and I'm not going to now.

You are going to have to come off as an unfair asshole to get yourself out of this situation. Are you an unfair asshole? I don't know, not for me to decide.

What I can tell you is that you are torturing yourself with half measures and agreeing to boundaries that you honestly wouldn't be happy with if he did abide by them.

I said at the beginning you are trying to live with non-monogamy. If you *really* want to do that then please go find a place to learn about ethical non-monogamy. This site isn't generally catering to the group of people (though there are a few on this board that are poly).

Ok, just starting from there, here's the deal. You, at the very least, believe that you have recommitted to your M and that what you want is devotion and committed monogamy. You have previously broken your vows and not delivered to your H what you wanted yourself. You failed. In return, you have allowed him to fail.

Time to wrap it up. You need to end this now just like any other BS we would recommend ending it now. You cannot live comfortably under infidelity. It's just not possible.

You need to prepare some sort of statement to your husband.

"I know I cheated before, and I know I agreed to let you have sex with a coworker, but this has spiraled out of control and is hurting me deeply. I want to recommit to our relationship. To re-establish devotion between each other and be exclusive again. If you don't want to be exclusive, then I'm not going to be able to stay with you anymore. I know it's unfair. I know you stayed with me after I cheated and I didn't deserve that opportunity. I appreciate all the work you have done in this relationship and I understand how badly I've hurt you. I'm hurting that badly now. I know that's not your intention, but that's how I feel. I'm not going to give you any more time to 'figure things out'. You are married to me and I need you to recommit to me or our marriage will be over. It's not what I want, but we are often stuck choosing between two different choices we don't want. I know you had to choose between trying to reconcile with me and divorce and neither was a good option. I know it might seem unfair again, but now I need to you choose between reconciling with me and divorce again. I'm willing to reconcile, but not while you are seeing another woman. I know that I agreed to this. I know I brought this on myself. But I can't live another day with my previous decision, and I'm retracting permission for you to fuck other women. I know you might not be able to decide *right now* in this moment, but I understand whatever you choose, I have brought this on myself. I'll be seeing a lawyer tomorrow if you don't want to reconcile with me."

Anything short of this is self-torture. Only you can decide if you deserve that...

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:55 PM, Wednesday, November 10th]

Kel, I don't think you ever found a healthy path to remorse. I'm not saying that you don't feel terrible about what you did. I know you wish desperately that you hadn't done it. It's crystal clear that you are willing to set yourself on fire to try and fix your marriage. You've topped off a long history of abuse and abandonment by abusing and abandoning yourself.

This morning I found her following him on Instagram even though it was a boundary I made very clear.

What does a "boundary" mean to you? Is it something that triggers consequences if crossed? If not, what role does it play?

@This0is0Fine the statement that you created for me brought me to tears. Part of me wants so badly to say those things and you articulated them so well. I'm going to keep that. It's greatly appreciated and it sounds so much stronger than I feel. I know I need to make a decision sooner or later. I appreciate all the honesty from this group. I even understand those that are angry with me. I get it. I realize I can't keep posting on here and expect support when I take no action. But I do appreciate everything this group has said and the things you are all making me think about.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:07 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:22 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

I have been reading this thread for a while now, and I was holding off on responding because I am still fairly new to all of this and there are so many others out there that can offer more. But I wanted to jump in and tell you that my WH was NOT hiding his affair pretty much at all after DDay. I did the pick me dance and told him he was hurting me, showed him by my actions that I was broken because of his A and IT DID NOT MATTER TO HIM. He named every single thing I had done wrong our entire marriage. He "never loved me", we were "never happy". He was living in an alternate universe. Your WH is, too! He was going to leave and be with her and nothing was going to change his mind, it seemed. That was, until I told him I was not going to be in a marriage with three people, told him I was talking to a lawyer the next day about divorce, and called his parents (in front of him) and spilled my guts.

I was absolutely terrified that he was going to leave me. He said as much as I was dialing his dad's phone number, and repeatedly after the call was over. But what happened next was mind blowing. He woke up the next day and his entire mind-frame shifted. He wanted to reconcile, he wanted to go NC with his AP, he wanted to be a husband again.

I'm not telling you this to try and force you to follow the same path as me, I just want you to see that I was broken-hearted, completely shattered, terrified that he would leave and I would be all of those things plus a single mom with barely any money. But I had to take a stand for what I deserved. It was hard as hell, and the scariest thing I have ever done, but it got me out of infidelity.

I'm not going to go into anything about your infidelities because I don't care if my WH was smack dab in the middle of an affair right this second...I wouldn't "cheat back" to deliver justice to him. That isn't right at all. I agreed to reconciliation with him, he deserves fidelity no matter the circumstances. Cheating is cheating...no matter who did what first. Its all wrong.

Please listen to This0Is0Fine...they gave you an excellent suggestion. This pretty much says everything that you would need. It acknowledges your prior history while also addressing your current situation, and takes BOTH of your feelings into account!

I know I cheated before, and I know I agreed to let you have sex with a coworker, but this has spiraled out of control and is hurting me deeply. I want to recommit to our relationship. To re-establish devotion between each other and be exclusive again. If you don't want to be exclusive, then I'm not going to be able to stay with you anymore. I know it's unfair. I know you stayed with me after I cheated and I didn't deserve that opportunity. I appreciate all the work you have done in this relationship and I understand how badly I've hurt you. I'm hurting that badly now. I know that's not your intention, but that's how I feel. I'm not going to give you any more time to 'figure things out'. You are married to me and I need you to recommit to me or our marriage will be over. It's not what I want, but we are often stuck choosing between two different choices we don't want. I know you had to choose between trying to reconcile with me and divorce and neither was a good option. I know it might seem unfair again, but now I need to you choose between reconciling with me and divorce again. I'm willing to reconcile, but not while you are seeing another woman. I know that I agreed to this. I know I brought this on myself. But I can't live another day with my previous decision, and I'm retracting permission for you to fuck other women. I know you might not be able to decide *right now* in this moment, but I understand whatever you choose, I have brought this on myself. I'll be seeing a lawyer tomorrow if you don't want to reconcile with me.

@BraveSirRobin you are right. I did not find a healthy path to remorse. I didn't get the help I should have gotten back then. And yes, I would set myself on fire if he would just stay with me. Fucked up as that sounds.

The boundaries is another issue for me. Maybe it should just be called rules. Either way...there is no consequence if they are crossed. Obviously I haven't held either one of them to a high standard. This was the part of the deal for me. In order for me to live with this. I cannot have it in my face constantly. And even though my kids have no idea he's screwing with and spending a lot of time with someone else, I don't want there to even be a chance of them catching on. It's not the first boundary she's crossed. She blew up his phone one night when we were in the kitchen cooking with the kids. I was mad and hurt. Even he seemed a bit miffed. I just hope that when he sees these things hurt me that he will reinforce the distance I need from their relationship. Gosh, when I type it out it sounds so stupid. Like trying to control a runaway train. I have looked through some poly + mono relationship stuff online and they talk about these kind of boundaries but theirs have direct consequences. I have not set it up this way. Again...everything I do is so he will stay. Dumb as it sounds. I do have IC tomorrow and then MC Friday. Lots to discuss for sure.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:07 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:22 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

Generally, a boundary has a consequence that you will enact if it is crossed.

In other words, he's welcome to continue being an entitled jerk, but he will be doing so without his wife and family.

You aren't controlling his behavior in this regard--you are controlling YOURS.

You're entitled to say that you can't live with this insanity. He was entitled to say for the last five freaking years that he couldn't live with what you had done. He didn't, and you haven't.

The path to a healthy marriage for the two of you becomes very murky right now as BOTH of you have a great deal of work to do to become healthy. Your marriage has been very unhealthy for a long time, with both of you circling each other like pissed-off cats. This is untenable, and I know you know it.

Sometimes pushing the stalling one off the fence is the only thing you can do. You do this by taking definitive action. And it might be a good idea to go dark on your plans. He doesn't need to know what you're processing, about the attorneys you're seeing or about anything else you're doing at this point.

Cat

I just hope that when he sees these things hurt me that he will reinforce the distance I need from their relationship.

Did you think about the hurt you were causing your husband when you cheated on him?

I'm not asking because I expect you to answer, but consider your reaction to that question a bit. Maybe you instantly jumped to rationalize that you didn't mean to hurt him, maybe something else.

Fundamentally, cheaters do what feels good for themselves first and really just don't even consider the hurt they are causing. Any pain he causes you will be rationalized away in his mind. Either as something you deserve for hurting him before, or any other built up resentment he might have.

Whether or not he technically has permission, the motivations for his actions are the same as someone that doesn't. His lack of obeying the rules and boundaries means he is already deep into the "wayward" mindset.

Ugh.. what a mess. I can't really tell if you just put your foot in it while trying to explain your mindset at the time or if you really haven't done "the work". I'm thinking maybe it was a little bit of both.

And yes, consequences are a bitch.

Your WH isn't fucking an OW while still married and living with you because "consequences". It's not because you cheated first. It's because there's NOTHING inside him which stops him from doing that. No values system, no boundaries. Just lust and selfishness. Let's assume for a moment that you really do believe that YOUR fidelity was predicated on your husband's behavior. He was being hateful to you, so you cheated with other men in order to make yourself feel better, right? MEANING... consequences, you aren't responsible for your behavior. It's his fault you cheated because he was mean. And yeah.. I can practically hear you bristling right now, but that's essentially what you said. In order for him to live with you, have sex with you every day, tell you he loves you, lie to his children about where he is, and the take the position that this is a "consequence" of your cheating... his fidelity is (and always has been) predicated on YOUR BEHAVIOR. Are you finally seeing a pattern here? He is NOT a better person than you. He's THE SAME as you. People don't just throw their integrity away because they're hurt or sad. A person whose core value of Fidelity is strong and protected by meaningful boundaries won't compromise on this. They can't. It would make them feel sick inside.

Now, after five years in contemplation I would have hoped that your bottom line on infidelity is that it's always wrong and no one deserves to be treated like that, meaning that fucking other people outside the marriage is never a "consequence" of the other guy's behavior. It's always our own responsibility who we decide to fuck, our own choice. The just consequence for a cheating partner is to see an attorney, file for divorce, and move on with your life. You don't throw your own integrity out the window. The fact that this was even an option for him means that his integrity is bullshit. And yeah.. I hear you again... you gave him permission, blah, blah, blah. No. If you didn't feel like you had free choice, than that permission was coerced. And he knows it. You've been married for over two decades. He knows it's coercion and he simply does not care. He's a guy who has two women falling all over him and pretty much drowning him in pussy. He's not sorry.

I'll be honest with you... I do think you're remorseful and I do think that you've taken responsibility for your cheating. I think it's likely that you've had some trouble expressing your reasoning and what you were thinking at the time. But I also think that there's still some work to do, and that this leftover bit of work might explain why you haven't stood up for yourself and laid down the law with your cheating WH. And yeah... I have no fucks to give about whatever permission he has extracted from you. He's a cheater. He's fucking an OW outside of his marriage while agonizing his wife and lying to his kid and who knows how many countless others about it. I think OIN brought up a really excellent question for you to ponder on... what role did "external validation" play in your choice to cheat? As a rape survivor, what role did sexual abuse play in the formation of your VALUES SYSTEM? Because that's what it all drills down to. We decide what we believe, what values we will honor. And when we do, we build monumental defenses around those core values... boundaries. I'm wondering if that boundary which ought to surround your solid belief in the rightness of fidelity is there for you. When you cheated, your core value of Fidelity was weak and permeable. It had a "but..." in it, an out clause. ie. "I believe in Fidelity, but... not if I feel the need for external validation." Doing the work means that you've no longer got an out clause. There's no "but...", hence, no way that you'll deviate from honoring your belief. You've replaced that "but..." with a "so...". ie. I believe in Fidelity, so... I never put myself in risky situations with the opposite sex". "So..." is the tall boundary with which you have surrounded your core belief.

What I'm thinking right now is that maybe you haven't drilled all the way down to CHEATING IS ALWAYS WRONG, because if you had, your WH's hypocrisy would be intolerable. You can't UN-see an undeniable truth, right? Once you've seen it, it's out there. And the last thing you'd want is to reward the ugliness of it with sex or permission. The slimy way your WH has coerced you wouldn't be acceptable to you. The fact that he's got this giant "but..." in his values system would be writ in neon, blinking like a strobe light in six-foot lettering, an unimpeachable truth and filling you with disgust.

I do think you're almost there. Maybe it's this last bit of "the work" which needs your attention. Maybe you'll talk to your IC about it. I feel like if you can get down to this last bit, when you can accept that cheating is NEVER a "consequence", but rather always a personal choice and always wrong, you'll be in a stronger position. It's easy to see that you've still got issues with guilt and shame and that your desire for forgiveness is causing you to over-empathize with your cheating WH. I don't think we need to take out our armchair psychology degrees to see that, right? It's probably going to take quite a bit of IC to get corrections on that. But what will toughen you up now, today, is getting right with your values system. Dig deep and figure out what you BELIEVE. Then, stand tall for it. You can do this. Believe that you are enough and you will be enough.

I feel like if you can get down to this last bit, when you can accept that cheating is NEVER a "consequence", but rather always a personal choice and always wrong, you'll be in a stronger position.

100%.