SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

One of the biggest mistakes I made in the early days was thinking my WH was going to magically change back into the person I had thought he was after discovery. I expected him to stop lying to cover his ass. I expected him to be back on the team.

It took a while for me to realize that he was only on his own team for quite a while.

So yeah, I can be forceful and make ultimatums, or I can be nice and see what happens. Don't I end up in the same place either way?

"End up in the same place"

Your priority seems to be not getting divorced instead of getting the respect and love you are entitled to in a relationship. We usually say that you are "trying to control the outcome." You can't. What I mean is, SHE has to choose what she needs for herself. Your role is to choose what you need for yourself.

I saw only one problem in your post: CARING that she was upset about your polygraphy request. Use self-talk when you do this. "I need that polygraph. I need her to show she is willing. I need to ignore that she is upset. Too bad. So am I! I shouldn't even be in this mess." And then go about your day. Her emotions about what you genuinely need are her problem to work through. The outcome of your marriage should not be in your head when you are pondering your needs here. Do not make yourself small in the relationship.

You can be a kind, friendly, and helpful...while asking for what you need without apology. That is exactly what strong people do.

Oh man, you remind me a lot of …. me, just 2 years ago. And that is not in any way meant to be derogatory, just an observation.

But if I find her cheating again, it's over. I won't even look back.

I’m going to challenge you on this. So you’ve moved the goal post once already, really almost all of us did. Almost all of us did not leave our betrayer immediately, no shame being in that club. But almost all of us would have said that we would have. So now, here you are saying next time is the real deal breaker. But there are endless examples here of people who keep experienced new betrayals, new lies, new abandonments, and just keep sticking with it. That is what my thread about being "stuck" is all about. I suspect your new red line is no where near as solid as you are conveying. I know it wasn’t for me.
And I hear in you the echos of my own fears of confronting my wife. BluerThanBlue wrote those EXACT same things to me over and over again. And she was right then, and she is right now. I wasn’t ready to listen and implement immediately, I got there eventually. I still have a fear of upsetting my STBXW, and I feel that is a testimony to some intense fucked up conditioning. This is a problem to tackle for you, it’s a spot that will hinder progress, keep you stuck.
And that said, push back on us all you want. Tell us to pound sand if you need to. You are the one living in your reality. You are where you are and we have to accept that. Whatever moves you forward is what is needed.

They can launch snot rockets all over their area if they want to.

Love how you write SS33! 😂

/threadjack

This is interesting and difficult. I’m going to write something to you that comes from the deepest recesses of my heart and soul. It’s something I would write to myself just 3 years ago. It is, at it’s core, the honest truth. You may or may not wish to read it, you won’t want to believe it, you will feel attacked and misunderstood… but it’s the truth. And believe me, even 3 years ago, I would respond the same way.

I think at your core, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what boundaries and healthy masculinity really mean. By no means is this an attack on you as a person, in no way am I saying you aren’t a man, and I am not belittling you. Please allow me to explain.

Let’s unpack some things - Boundaries

You stopped setting them because they upset her. You then make the natural conclusion that your boundaries are aggressive, abusive and hurtful. Therefore setting boundaries is unkind and not something that a nice man would do. This is wrong, it’s a logical fallacy. There is no grey area, it’s just wrong (and very rarely do I speak in absolutes). Boundaries are not controlling, and anybody that says they are, is either intentionally manipulating and emotionally abusing you, or is so emotionally immature that they see consequences of their own actions as abuse. (Or, what you call boundaries are actually controlling behaviors - but this is not what I’m talking about). So what are they?

You don’t set boundaries by controlling people. You don’t say "you will not cheat on me again, you will be home at 9pm, you are not going out with your friends…." That is not a boundary, it’s controlling and abusive behavior. Boundaries are for you, and you alone. They are your lines in the sand, and they are followed by actions YOU WILL TAKE to get yourself away from an unfavorable situation. You say "if you cheat on me again, I am leaving. If you lie to me again, I will not stay in this relationship. If you contact your AP again, I am filing for divorce and will not reconcile." Then you follow through - YOU FOLLOW THROUGH WITH NO EXCEPTIONS OR FLEXIBILITY. Words without the willingness to act are worthless. They have no power but to hurt. If your wife is hurt or triggered by your boundaries that is HER problem, not yours. And it doesn’t say anything about YOU that she is triggered by reasonable boundaries. It says worlds about her - and none of it is good. If you change your boundaries to accommodate her feelings two things will be guaranteed to happen - she will have no respect for you, and you will have no respect for yourself. The outcome of those 2 things will be a horrific relationship and your deep unhappiness in life. If the outcome of your boundaries is to make her unhappy and not want the marriage - so be it. Because while losing the marriage is traumatic, it is far far worse to live with someone who does not respect your boundaries. Even worse to be a person who does not respect their own boundaries.

So you do what all nice guys do. You cave. You absorb the fallout to keep the peace. You think that by doing this you are making her life more pleasant, more tolerable, you are giving her space. It seems right, because she’s nicer now. She’s happier now. You’re a good husband now. It’s all a facade, it’s a Potemkin marriage. Underneath the surface you are planting seeds of contempt, disrespect, and resentment. You plant them, you water them, you tend the plants. Then you don’t understand a month from now why she’s cheating again. After all, you made it as comfortable as you could because you’re a nice guy!

Your fatal flaw here is thinking that a nice guy, is a good man. He’s not. A nice guy is manipulative, and at his core he is also emotionally abusive - though unintentionally. He creates covert contracts and then breeds resentment when his needs are not met. Because he doesn’t know how to state his needs, and hold healthy boundaries when they aren’t being met. Because he thinks that doing so would be abusive. A nice guy tries to create situations where his needs will be met (like backing down from your boundaries to appease your wife’s mood in the hopes that she will start to come around to your way of thinking). What a good man would actually do, is respectfully state what his needs are, and then set the boundary that if they aren’t being met - he’s gone. Nice guys are actually not nice, they’re just well intentioned, emasculated, and deep down very angry though they cover it in layers of fake happiness…like a malignant pearl.

Somewhere along the way, men in our generations have been raised to think that masculinity is bad. It’s not. Women can detect genuine masculinity better than any man can, but they cannot teach it. They know it when they see it, often times they’re drawn to it, but it can’t be taught. Similarly, no man can teach femininity (maybe they think they can, they grew up around women, but they cannot), but they know it when they see it. People have abused each other for so long (historically, or perhaps more openly, men have abused women in higher numbers), that masculinity became this evil notion, it became synonymous with jerk, asshole, abuser. Men, took this a step further and figured that being a nice guy would then be seen as attractive. But it’s not. Nice guys are not attractive. KIND MEN are attractive. Toxic masculinity is not real masculinity, toxic masculinity is abuse, real masculinity is genuine, and while it involves being firm at times (and this firmness is not often met with acceptance by those on the receiving end, it’s actually healthy, and in the end - it is respected). A kind man is someone who treats people with respect, but he has respect FOR HIMSELF FIRST AND FOREMOST. He does not cower from uncomfortable situations, he does not back down from his boundaries. He enforces them in an honest, yet firm and consistent way. A kind man would express empathy for your wife’s discomfort with boundaries, but he would never sacrifice his boundaries due to her discomfort. Any more than an emotionally healthy woman would back down from her boundaries because it made a man uncomfortable.

You seem to think that a poor reaction from her is due to an unreasonable action from you. Stop it. You don’t control anything in her. Her emotional reactions to you are from her own issues, not yours. You can’t fix her. But if you want to keep her broken, by all means keep doing what you’re doing.. This does not mean you are responsible for her brokenness, but it does suggest you are enabling it.

Here’s the kicker in the end. What you are doing appears to be producing the correct effects (she’s happier, nicer you gave her space etc etc). What it is really doing is degrading her respect for you…which she may not have much of anyways. Because really man, what is there to respect? Women don’t generally respect men who don’t respect themselves. They don’t respect men they can control, they don’t respect men who will cave to some tears and confrontation. Why? Because you are unsafe. In the wild it means you don’t have the willingness to do difficult things if they make people uncomfortable, you won’t be there for her when she needs you because she knows how easily you back down. She knows that at some deep and fundamental level, she cannot trust you to be there for her, protect her and support her. Why? Because all it takes is some anger or sadness to make you back down. That is not masculine. It is not attractive. It will not get your needs met. If you won’t stand up TO her, you will not stand up FOR her.

NONE OF THIS MEANS YOU NEED TO BE CONTROLLING, ABUSIVE OR TOXIC. IF THAT’S WHAT YOU’RE THINKING WHEN YOU’RE READING THIS, YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING THE CORE PRINCIPLE.

My strong advice to you is learn how to stand up for yourself. Learn to set healthy boundaries and stick to them - even if they seem to have a detrimental effect on her emotional state. You have to be willing to walk away or you will lose everything - and maybe the result of you learning to respect yourself and hold healthy boundaries is the destruction of your marriage, while sad, that is ok and healthy. It seems counterintuitive, but it is true. And what you’ll find is that you can be gentle, and kind, and empathetic, and caring and still set firm and respectful boundaries. THAT - that is true masculinity. And that is what women will ultimately respect and desire. A man that caves at any sign of discomfort but is NICE about it - that is not masculine, attractive or respectful.

She will just keep cheating, and controlling and abusing you until there’s nothing left. Then she’ll leave you.

Again, this all may seem harsh. It’s exactly what I would tell myself just 3 years ago. And 3 years ago, I’d probably respond exactly how you are responding above. I have these recommendations for you:

1) Talk to your therapist about why you think setting healthy boundaries is actually controlling. Talk to them about how you should interpret her negative reactions to your very reasonable and healthy boundaries, and see if you can explore why it’s unhealthy to cave on them just to make her less angry.

2) Read the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Glover - don’t let the title fool you, it’s not about being an asshole. It's about being genuine and honest. It won’t fix all your problems, but it will be a good reference for you. Like this site, take from it what you need.

3) Start getting comfortable with confrontation. Start standing up for yourself in healthy ways. This does not mean you need to troll downtown looking for fights. It’s ok to de-escalate, it’s not ok to let people walk all over you - especially not your spouse (whether it’s husband or wife).

4) Stop mistaking comfort for happiness and healthiness. Stop mistaking her being happier that she doesn’t have to face reality with progress. Don’t mistake her being nice and accommodating as progress, or as a sign that she’s, at a deep level, happy and respectful of your behavior.

All of what I wrote is from my heart. And like I’ve said several times I know this because I have lived it. I was you! So have many here. This is also not male-centric advice, I just framed it that way because we are both men.

You are going to have to start embracing the discomfort of making your wife unhappy, to set your own healthy boundaries. Otherwise, your marriage is doomed. It may already be.

I wish you peace. I’m so sorry you’re here.

[This message edited by justsendit at 11:22 AM, Sunday, January 12th]

Excellent points just end it.

From experience, my cheating H kept pushing the envelope to see how far he could go with his affair and what I was willing to accept.

Post dday2 I saw emails he sent to the OW and what he write was basically that I was a doormat. Funny how I saw the emails after I kicked him to the curb and was no longer a doormat (or his kind loving wife).

And suddenly he got the message that R was completely on my terms. There was no room for negotiation. No! became a complete sentence w/ no explanation required (on my part).

I learned this:

You cannot "nice" your spouse bsck to the marriage. It will never work.

The 180 is designed for some very good reasons and is very effective.

Cheaters will try to control everything to get what they want. They often want the security of the marriage AND ability to cheat.

True Reconciliation and Respect is happening when the cheater’s actions match their words.

BTW 11 years after dday2 and I have learned to get what I want in life without yelling or drama. His affair taught me a thing or two lol 😆

I appreciate all responses. I get it, many feel like I’m being a doormat. My WW may actually agree with you.

But that is incorrect. I’m not allowing her to cheat again. If it happens it’s because she chooses it.

If the marriage can only work with strong boundaries, count me out. My wife will either not cheat or I’ll be gone. I know this only works if I follow through, and I can understand people thinking I’m full of shit.

But literally, she can fuck around and find out. No additional boundaries needed.

But literally, she can fuck around and find out. No additional boundaries needed.

That IS a boundary. If you hold it.

Posting as a mod, quoting from the Guidelines:

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender....

Posting member to member.

justendit, The healthy behaviors you describe and refer to are healthy for all genders. The unhealthy behaviors you describe and refer to are unhealthy for all genders. So why tie your post to gender?

*****

One thing you touch on deserves more emphasis - the presumed benefits that accrue to the manipulative, nice person. Some that may be important to a nice person include - this is by no means a complete list - 1) avoiding conflict; 2) avoiding losing a conflict; 3) avoiding taking the risk of being authentic, 4) probably avoiding some unpleasant truths.

Getting out of co-d is a daunting task. A co-d person has to risk their relationships in becoming authentic. A co-d person needs to look inside to figure out what is really important to them, and they need to start acting in honest ways to get what they want.

Among the first steps are 1)to identify where one is, where one wants to be, and the path from the 1st to the 2nd, and 2) figure out how making the changes will replace the benefits of not changing with more satisfying benefits. IMO, one probably can't change if the benefits of not changing are greater than the benefits of changing.

*****

If the marriage can only work with strong boundaries, count me out. My wife will either not cheat or I’ll be gone.

4characters, Do you really mean that your only requirement for M is not cheating? My bet is that you want more.

Some of my requirements for M are: spending time with me, sex, agreeing on finances, agreeing on our living arrangements, honoring each other's wants and needs, increasing my joy and pleasure in life, participating in making decisions that affect both of us. She's not supposed to hurt me. She needs to love me, to accept me as I am. She needs to want what I want to give, and give what I want to receive, etc., etc., etc.

Now is a time to think hard about your requirements and your nice-to-haves, to communicate them to your W, and to evaluate whether or not she will give you enough to satisfy you - and she should do the same. Failing to meet needs is not an excuse for cheating but it is a good reason for ending a relationship.

I know you're in pain. I know it's difficult to think now - but the better your thinking is, the better your outcome will be. What are your requirements for M? for R?

My bet is that you do have boundaries, but you're not aware of them. The thing is: if you don't know your boundaries, the more likely it is that they'll be violated.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:27 PM, Sunday, January 12th]

Justsendit,

That was an amazing post and explanation. It should be required reading for all adults.

Thank you.

Posting a question in the interest of any who have the same question I do whenever I read good advice that goes like this:

You say "if you cheat on me again, I am leaving..."

What do you do if you own the former marital home outright, after having had a notarized marital agreement signed whereby your cheating spouse forfeited all right, title and interest including spousal rights to the home over to you in order to "try to R," and you executed a land record/deed at the courthouse to reflect that agreement, but then the WS continues to violate your oft-stated "boundaries" while living as a no-longer-welcomed guest in your home?

I always get stumped by the part people advise BS's where, if boundaries are not being respected, somehow one is supposed to "leave." I take that to mean pack my stuff and move out of my own home? I have been living IHS (in-house-separated) for over 2 decades from a serial cheater who even today, while not actively cheating any longer that I can sense, continues to assure me he will (someday) fix his mental health issues, but in the meantime, is breaking my requested boundaries for respect every day?

I know he needs the facilities on my property to run his sucessful business and it would be okay if he just did that business here, but would move out of my house, yet every day he tells himself we are "good" and meanwhile I'm not seeing any change. My boundaries must be weak or non-existent?

Any comments for situations like mine, pertaining to enforcing some behavioral boundaries? I get the concept, but feel that I'm up against a legal wall, such that the next step would look like me "controlling the outcome" (eviction) for my un-regenerated cheating spouse.

Am I just missing something?

#Sisoon
I agree it applies to both genders. I wasn’t trying to generalize genders, just directing it more towards the male perspective because the OP is a man. I put a small sentence to that effect in the post but it probably got lost in the wall of text and preachiness. But your point is well taken, and I’ll be more mindful going forward.

#Superesse
Wow, that’s a lot. Look, I’m not sitting here pretending that I have all the answers to life’s questions. But sometimes we get so deep into a situation that we don’t see that there are clear ways out. By "I’m leaving" what I meant is I am leaving the relationship, ideally that would include a physical separation to assist moving on.

I have no ideas the ins/outs of your relationship. But if you want out, why not go speak to a lawyer and tell them what you’ve told us? It’s your call when reconciliation has failed. It’s your property and I suspect you have the option to evict him should you choose. I imagine it would be painful, unpleasant and depressing. But if coming out on the other side is better, that’s a mountain that I would personally try to climb. It’s your call in the end.

20 years you’ve been like this? What I am reading is that you are unhappy, is this correct? If so, what’s to stop you from seeing a lawyer and finding out what your legal recourse is? He needs your property for his business? Respectfully, that’s not your problem. If you, from the goodness of your heart (and because you WANT to help him), allow him to use the property for business, well then that is your call and I’m sure a lawyer could help make that legally official. But if you want him gone, and that means his business fails….well, he should have considered that before he brought you where you are. Easy to say, harder to do. Easy for me to type, much harder to put into practice for you. But sometimes our biggest obstacles are self-imposed. Sometimes we get so deep into habit or the status quo or whatever, that we don’t see a path because it’s overgrown with weeds…but it’s there.

Like the Eagles said:
"Well, I know it wasn't you who held me down
Heaven knows, it wasn't you who set me free
So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key"

I wish you all the best

Any comments for situations like mine, pertaining to enforcing some behavioral boundaries? I get the concept, but feel that I'm up against a legal wall, such that the next step would look like me "controlling the outcome" (eviction) for my un-regenerated cheating spouse.

Am I just missing something?

Superesse, I don't see eviction as trying to control the outcome in your case. It's taking personal agency and moving into a future you want. "Controlling the outcome" usually refers to trying to control someone else's behavior. In this case, you would have to tell your WS that he has 3 months (or some other firm deadline) to move out, and if he doesn't, you're going to legally evict him. It might be the most difficult conversation you ever have. Or not - I was so burned out by my WS's lack of change a couple months ago that telling him "I'm done trying R" was a huge relief.

The boundary in this case is for yourself. If you tell your WS to get out, you *must* follow through on the eviction. That is for your self-respect and mental health, not anything about him or his feeling. You'll have to disconnect from his anger/grief/begging/guilt tripping, or whatever he tries to do to avoid having to move out. This is how you maintain a healthy boundary. It's not fun, but in the long term, it empowers you and enables you to live a life you choose.

Like the Eagles said:

"Well, I know it wasn't you who held me down

Heaven knows, it wasn't you who set me free

So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains

And we never even know we have the key"

One of the best things I learned from my H’s affair.

Life post affair has been eye opening for me b/c I stopped putting him first and started putting myself first.

I’ve learned in life I can really only depend on myself.

From his affair I realized that he can drop me for no reason, therefore I need to put myself first and protect myself, be prepared in life and take nothing for granted.

I also refused to remain in a marriage where I was disrespected, lied to and cheated on. Especially after dday2.

I was afraid to say anything during his affair for fear I would send him running to the OW. Believe it or not, letting him practically flaunt his cheating was the WORST thing I did.

When I finally stood up to him, things started to improve for me.

I kicked him to the curb, did the hard 180 and planned to D him.

11 years later we are happily reconciled, have a much better marriage (for me) and I take no crap from him or anyone.

Did he balk at first and still try to control things? Absolutely. He was very used to getting his way. But when I would say no and refuse to engage or allow him to "negotiate" or discuss things, he quickly learned the game had changed and he was no longer in control of me.

And suddenly he’s realizing that HE needed to do some heavy lifting to get this marriage back together. Because I was t lifting a finger to help him any longer.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 10:27 AM, Monday, January 13th]

Thanking each of you who addressed the question I posed with such care and thoughtfulness! I should start a separate thread so as not to threadjack 4 character's. Just very hard work to sever one's life. R is not necessarily staying married but it is, as Sisoon always says, 'getting out of Infidelity' which means 'healing from the destroyed relationship.' Best to all of us.

You are policing her
You are a slave to her moods
If she's happy then she going along with the updates, if not then you're getting the cold shoulder etc.

What work has she done to make herself safe? Because what you wrote down was exhausting to read, you must be checking your phone every two seconds waiting for an update while you mind is playing out scenarios that might be unfolding.

She doesn't call, you're effed
She drives off in the wrong direction you're effed

Of course she got tired of it and now is reflecting that resentment back to you.

What about when she wants to go for drinks or eat dinner with the team, she can't now because you will get mad.
Of course that's the thinking of someone who's not sorry because the quickfire band aids of Day1 updates gets old very fast. Now you've backsliding into almost apologising for her being short, when you should have shut the silent treatment the moment it started.

No grand advice, just an observation.

Thanks, justendit.

I agree your post is a GREAT guide to healing, surviving, and thriving for all BSes. I must have triggered ... I apologize to all for objecting to one relatively small part of the post and not stressing the overall great advice.

Great posts, justendit. You articulated what I was trying to convey, but without all the snot. (Thanks, gr8ful. I had fun writing that!) And great advice for superesse too.

Something else that's important about setting boundaries is that it's clear communication about what you need and expect in your marriage, which is like a syllabus for Infidelity Recovery 101. Let's face it, the WS failed Marriage and now they're going to have to take a remedial course and get back to the basics until they're deemed ready to take a stab at Marriage again, and they have to do all that while cleaning up the shrapnel from the bomb they detonated. It's a lot. If you want to R, tell them what you need. Help them out. Help yourself out.

Any comments for situations like mine, pertaining to enforcing some behavioral boundaries?

I wouldn't try to put behavioral boundaries in place with your ex, because what you want is for him to be out of your space, right? He hasn't changed yet, and the likelihood is pretty low that he ever will, so why try to set boundaries about his behavior? I would set some physical boundaries, such as "You have until February 28 to move out of my house. You may continue to use the shop for your business." If he doesn't move out by Feb 28, move his stuff to the shop and change the locks on the house. If you legally have the right to do that, the only thing stopping you is you.

[wrong thread]

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:47 PM, Monday, January 13th]

@bluerthanblue

I really can’t argue with anything you said. It makes sense.

You’ve definitely summed up many of my fears regarding her motivations for going through MC and IC.

She seems very preoccupied with the "homework" assignments, and not so much with anything outside of that. She’s not comfortable being "the bad guy", but who is?

I have a date with her tonight and I’m very much looking forward to it. But consistency is the key, I know that this is going to take years to overcome. I know there will be a lot of ups and downs.

Here’s hoping tonight is an up.