SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Her conflict avoidance...

People who tend to avoid conflict first and foremost avoid the conflicts within themselves. I've had this tendency as long as I can remember. I never felt comfortable being vulnerable with people. I built walls to avoid confrontation, keep me safe, never understanding that what I'd actually built was prison.

Over the years, I've had friends and lovers point this out to me, wondering why I was so reserved, or when I'd finally break out of my shell.

My exww created a conflict that I simply couldn't avoid, not just with her, but with myself. I broke out of my shell, with a rageful vengeance.

I've often wondered if I could have recognized and worked through those internal conflicts without the emotional and psychological trauma she put me through. Therapy might have helped, if only I wasn't so conflicted about it.

I mention all of this because I've noticed a pattern with betrayed spouses whose waywards have these same tendencies. They inevitably become increasingly frustrated, exasperated, and eventually dejected.

If your WW can learn to resolve whatever internal conflicts she has, she'll find a way to resolve conflicts with you (and the rest of the world, too).

She has to own and fix her shit. It's not easy and it takes time. No quick fixes.

I have a little empathy for your Ww. That's easy for me, of course.

I am going to answer this because I think it may help Traydee. But if we really want to debate this I would suggest posting it as a separate topic:

This is a much more general comment, but what some call shame often looks an awful lot to me like ENTITLEMENT.

I agree that entitlement is present in every single situation of infidelity and is often the way people justify permission. I do X, I deserve Y. Completely 100 percent agree.

Understanding shame is not something that a bs is required to factor into their decision. It’s a ws matter to deal with in recovery. I will use myself as an example because I think when we keep it general it can be abstract.

First let me define what these terms mean:

Guilt is how we feel about what we did.

Remorse is how we feel about what we did to someone else.

Shame is how we feel about who we are.

I had a lot of shame that accumulated in my development years. It made me very sensitive to rejection, I often would lie to seem better, I was always self protective and that kept me from being vulnerable in my relationships. Instead I sought to control the perception of who I was in order to receive love. People who think they are inherently bad or have to hide who they are by not saying what they think or feel in order to be in a relationship tend to create a world that one day they will feel very empty in. And worse, many of us blame our spouse and accumulate resentment.

Shame causes people to be avoidant, sometimes overly selfishc sometimes overly selfless, and this imbalance leads to them to not communicate their needs, thus pushing them down for long periods of time. It’s all internal- in all reality I could have asked for what I wanted and likely a lot of time gotten it with no issue especially if I worked on communicating it in a positive way instead of just issuing complaints. But I didn’t see that. I would issue complaints and get completely shut down by my husband who didn’t respond well to the negative way I was trying to have my needs met.

So over time I stopped stating them. Eventually we were very disconnected and I felt unseen. Not realizing that I was not really allowing myself to be seen by even myself much less my husband.

Without dealing with this properly it sets up a potential ap to swoop in and give something artificially that has way more power than it should.

So as part of a ws’s recovery, we have to learn how to see ourselves, not just what we need to change in our character but have a relationship with ourselves that enables us to have a relationship with another person that includes open and honest communication, fostering our marriage as a team rather than an everybody for themselves, and positive conflict management techniques.

In order to do that, you have to believe you are worthy to have your needs met, that you are deserving of love so you can receive it. My husband gave me all sorts of love- we said I love you every day. He took care of me when I was sick, if I wanted something he found a way for me to get it, and I could go on and on with the many things we do in marriage that are the simple every day love things.

I couldn’t receive it not only because I didn’t feel worthy, but also I assumed he was doing these things transactionally the way I was. I didn’t do things from a place of I love him and I want him to be happy. I didn’t them so he would see I was valuable and he would love me. So I couldn’t see he was doing things for me because he loved me and wanted me to be happy. I had to redefine the word love as part of recovery. And it’s so much more powerful than I knew it could be.

Don’t get me wrong, I did love him in the fond feelings sort of way. When we got together I was in awe of him and felt passionate about him. We were all over each other all the time. But those things only take you so far in the day to day marriage, especially while raising 3 kids.

I needed to decide that I love me. That I am worthy of good things. That didn’t take away my guilt or remorse. Addressing shame freed me to be able to sit through those hard discussions and accept accountability. When you are filled with shame you can barely take more criticism because you are literally hanging by a thread. I wanted to die.

Shame is an actually a big why and how cheating happened for many ws. Not all of us, but many of us.

So the reason Traydee is having so much issue with his wife’s shame is a) because it stifles him in being able to have and express his feelings. He sees she punished herself so much it doesn’t make space for him to maneuver without factoring in she will get worse And 2) because when it’s not addressed then the ws is still not able to move through life authentically and well adjusted. So he is never going to feel safe to come back to the relationship if he doesn’t see her rise up from the shame and claim the life she wants. When a bs can’t see that claiming then they never can feel completely sure they are the one their ws wants. They might feel sure they want to stay married or may not even cheat again, but they need to see that strength in being chosen. It doesn’t happen by watching them navel gaze.

No one wants to be picked from a place of shame or fear. They want their spouse to be someone they can admire again. That’s impossible to do if that partner doesn’t have anything more going on for them but doting all over you.

(That’s not to say a healthy loving relationship doesn’t have healthy dose of doting and showing them how important they are to you. A bs just doesn’t want to feel like they are doing it to just make amends but because they truly do love you)

1. 'I need to stop feeling so horrible at myself for what I did'. Well, but what about the searing pain the BS is in, that he cannot seem to turn off? Are you willing to get down on the floor with him when he is flooding? What about when he is flooding and lashing out at you? What about HIS shame, both in feeling 'not enough' for you, feeling rage at you for making him feel inadequate, and finally, the sense of profound embarrassment aka shame for you to be seeing him this way? Maybe it would be better if the WS were to instead MAKE FRIENDS with those awful feelings.

I do agree you make friends with some of the hard feelings. But shame is useless and it holds you back. It’s not a feeling it’s a belief. It’s a belief you are bad, unworthy, not loveable.by getting rid of that belief is what provides the strength and ability to truly be there for your spouse.

Shame says I am bad. Someone with less toxic shame will say what I did was bad and I can do better. It allows us to be curious about another’s pain and makes you vulnerable enough to see where you have accountability not just in their current pain but in the whys and hows of how you sank so far and your culpability of things that weren’t working in the pre-A marriage.

2. 'I need to convince myself that I am worthy of love'. Well yeah in an abstract sense that is still certainly true. If a WS has a heart attack they still deserve CPR as much as the next person. Is a WS worthy of a RELATIONSHIP though? I am going to say outright NO. Is ANYONE deserving of a relationship? There are a lot of worthy people who are single, despite not wanting to be. The WS however, has the extra baggage of being entrusted with someone's heart and then throwing that away. Maybe they will be able to find love again with their BS, and if not, maybe someone will give them a chance maybe not. They are certainly not entitled to another chance though.

Some overarching thoughts of mine.

I do not disagree.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:21 PM, Friday, November 7th]

I do agree you make friends with some of the hard feelings. But shame is useless and it holds you back. It’s not a feeling it’s a belief. It’s a belief you are bad, unworthy, not loveable.by getting rid of that belief is what provides the strength and ability to truly be there for your spouse.

I do agree with this. I don't think a bs wants *shame* from his ws as much as instead he wants his ws to suffer with him, to get down on the floor with him so to speak. That is NOT shame per se but that is definitely hard hard feelings.

This is a thread-jack though so for another thread.

I agree with you. And I think any good candidate for reconciliation does go through the pain of remorse and sharing that with their bs. There is a difference in that and just simply self punishing. I did the self punishing a lot. It didn’t get better until I finally stopped and grew into someone who could hold the accountability and the pain of what happened but not let it define who I am. There is not other way to successfully recover as a ws.

I think we successfully kept it from thread jacking. It became an elaboration on why this couple is likely stuck at the moment. It can also be that it’s simply not something Traydee can accept, but I am not convinced of that. I hope Mrs Traydee can see seek a different path in this regard.

Waitedwaytoolong

I think in my situation, maybe not yours, was the person she turned into was created by the massive amount of abuse I gave her the first year. How often can someone be called stupid, a cliche for sleeping with the younger guy working on the house, and the constant threat of me telling our daughters without being affected. She wasnt stupid, and in fact prior to the whole affair was one of the most well adjusted person you could meet. But after, the lights went out. She, as you have experienced, walked on eggshells. She thought I would divorce her if she burnt toast. But I think my guilt comes from helping to create the person she became. Which ultimately I didn’t want. I wanted a partner, but she never became that. And sadly I didn’t help.

Your wife is in a similar situation. She is lost and scared but unfortunately there is no direction manual for her. One of my biggest regrets is after my initial anger burned out, I never gave her any encouragement or guidance. I just disengaged.

Please know that this part of your story has helped me get as far as I have.

I was EXACTLY the same way. At the time, I didn't think of it as abuse, but that is what it was. I was so triggered and angry...and that anger was hiding pain. I used the word stupid probably a hundred times during those months The cliche of being "desired" by some younger guy was so sickening to me because I thought she would not fall for something so stereotypical. That dude would say ANYTHING to get what he wanted from her, and it made her giddy enough to pursue it. It sounds like she regressed into a naive teenager.

I was going off on one of my triggered days, when I really saw it. It wasnt the first time I saw it, but for whatever reason I REALLY saw it on this day.
I saw her shrink from a withering verbal assault. She just balled up in a chair and cried. Not the first time at all. But she literally shrank before my eyes. And I felt like the biggest bully a$$hole on earth.

I then remembered some of your posts and realized that I was becoming what you advised against. And I knew I was more than capable of becoming that. I just could not stop it.

Did I have a right to feel what I felt? Of course. But I could not continue to put her through that. Either I was gonna have to change or leave. I decided to try to change my approach. Only then could I start to see the weakness in her that was ALWAYS there. I could see that she was messed up in some ways long before I came along.

Which bring me to Hikingout

I had a lot of shame that accumulated in my development years. It made me very sensitive to rejection, I often would lie to seem better, I was always self protective and that kept me from being vulnerable in my relationships. Instead I sought to control the perception of who I was in order to receive love. People who think they are inherently bad or have to hide who they are by not saying what they think or feel in order to be in a relationship tend to create a world that one day they will feel very empty in. And worse, many of us blame our spouse and accumulate resentment.

You have hit it out the park on this.

My W was always sensitive to rejection. Overly so in my opinion. I see now that she rarely lived authentically, mind you we are on 26 years of marriage and I couldnt truly see it until the last 3 years. I was able to accept the the false exterior she portrayed to others as long as I got the real her. I guess now I wonder what is the real her.

So the reason Traydee is having so much issue with his wife’s shame is a) because it stifles him in being able to have and express his feelings. He sees she punished herself so much it doesn’t make space for him to maneuver without factoring in she will get worse And 2) because when it’s not addressed then the ws is still not able to move through life authentically and well adjusted.

This is true in a lot of ways. I hold back what I feel sometimes so I dont ruin a good week or a fun time. It does cause me to shut down. Especially with everything our DD has going on.
I see pieces of my W rising from the ashes and reclaiming herself, but I also see times where that false exterior is put back up. Not to me but to others and it is unnerving. I am not sure I believe in her anymore. I also understand that sometimes that false exterior is how she copes with things. For example, It is not easy for her to tell her manager "no I can't work the weekend because we have a family gathering". She just tries to work from home, all the while hosting events for family. She puts on a smile and tries to do it all. It is maddening to ME, because I would just say NO. But then when the burnout comes, I am left with the empty shell of a tired person.

A bigger portion though is I am not the same person. I am having my own mid-life crisis and wondering what I want the rest of my life to look like. Who I want to be for the last 30-40-50 years of my life. Before all this, I was 110% sure that we would grow old together...now not so much.

I am beginning to come to grips how life changing this stuff truly is.

I see pieces of my W rising from the ashes and reclaiming herself, but I also see times where that false exterior is put back up. Not to me but to others and it is unnerving. I am not sure I believe in her anymore.

What's unnerving about it?

Unhinged

What's unnerving about it?

Honestly, it's the idea that she can so easily fall back into conflict avoidance so easily when sometimes conflict is necessary.

As you said previously:

People who tend to avoid conflict first and foremost avoid the conflicts within themselves.

When I see it now, it makes my antenna go up.

When I see it now, it makes my antenna go up.

When I see it now, in me, my antenna goes up. That, my friend, is half of the battle. It is not easy, by any stretch of the imagination, to change our own deeply ingrained tendencies. It's uncomfortable, scary at times, but oh so worth the effort.

Sometimes, I remind myself that it's a life-long work-in-progress, until I realize how much progress I have made.

I hope your wife understands and believes that she can do the same.