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If we ultimately decide to go our separate ways, I do not want financial, legal, or emotional entanglements to be the reason I stay.

Maybe change "we" to "I" and take back your agency. You are in control of your own life. You don't require permission for your choices to be acceptable.

*"If either or both of us decide to go our separate ways..."

It takes two to tango. Both people need to want to be there for it to work. Either spouse can decide to end the marriage unilaterally at any time and for any reason, where no-fault divorce is legal.

(Not to be like "Well acktshually..." but for accuracy's sake...)

I do not think I am comfortable accepting this treatment. I think I developed an extremely high tolerance for chaos and learned very early in life that loving someone meant enduring pain, trying harder, and refusing to abandon them.

Gemmy, I hope this is something you're going to be working on in therapy, constantly being in survival mode.

I took a very different approach in life. I developed a tendency to avoid conflict and build walls. I have a very low tolerance for chaos. I can easily ghost people, no matter how much I might love them. Maybe that's another survival mode. I see it as preserving my peace at any cost.

Refusing to abandon your wife is somewhat noble of you. There's a precarious element however. As an analogy...

I've been a swimmer all of my life. I was on swim teams from grade school through high school. I've been a certified life guard and (in the Navy) a teacher. I've saved a couple of people from drowning. Through all of my training, every instructor has drilled it into my head that while trying to save a life there is a very real danger that a desperate and panicked person terrified of drowning can, and will, take me down with them. I knew that I might have to let someone drown in order to preserve my own life.

Your wife is drowning. You can try to save her, if you're so inclined, but she can, and will, take you down with her.

Gemmy,

What is the current living situation in your home? I know you are pressing forward on the divorce which I applaud you for but I get the feeling you are in some sort of in-home separation? I get this feeling when you recently posted about your WW leaving for 6 days. First, why did she leave-- vacation, bad argument...what??? Second, how did you feel while she was gone for 6 days? Relieved? Stressed?

I ask these questions because from your postings it appears that you and your WW are still living together and are having frequent conversations about her affairs and your marriage history. Your WW, at one point, did not want a divorce but understood and accepted the divorce was happening. I take it she is still fighting to remain with you? (Albeit in a clumsy and ignorant way that does not help you heal in a meaningful manner.)

By having these frequent conversations with your WW who simply does not get it, I hope you realize nothing productive will come from it. These past several months, you've been stuck conducting a thorough 'autopsy' on the death of your marriage and coming to understand the manner and means of its death being her affairs. You have written eloquently regarding your thoughts and feelings (hell, you have enough material for a book.. seriously after everything has ended you may want to explore being published) But I haven't seen you write anything about the future and your plans...

Can I recommend instead, you turn your attention to the future after your divorce? Have you made any plans? What's the living situation going to be? Any dreams you want to explore-- new career, vacation, hobbies, making new friends??? Turn your attention away from your WW and completely detach. Take some time to be by yourself... keep your contact with your STBXW limited to texts only regarding your kids' exchanges. For gods' sake do not jump immediately into Reconciliation, now or even soon after the divorce... she hasn't earned that gift, and probably never will. Get out of the depressing morose of examining the marriage and your WW's actions and get excited about the future. Think of the dead weight you will be shedding when your WW leaves... use her "It was only 5 people" statement as a motivation to move forward in your life, think of her statement every time she texts or calls you... hell, change her name in your phone to "Fucker of Five" so you are reminded of it every time she attempts contact with you.

Look forward to the future with excitement Gemmy. Almost any woman you date in the future is going to be morally superior to your wife in every meaningful way. At this point, it's just numbers and odds leading to a sure bet lock as possible. Let "Fucker of Five" wear the self-imposed scarlet letter and live with looking at herself in the mirror while you move on to living a better life with better people in it.

I'm going to give you some advice, said (partially) tongue-in-cheek.

When the simping stops, the pimping starts.

This was a bit to shock you a bit to break your thought pattern and make you laugh. I'm not really calling you a chump or anything. But your WW, man.....a better life awaits you after D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:25 PM, Saturday, July 25th]

IDK, Gemmy. D usually means an end to a relationship. My reading (on SI and elsewhere) tells me it's the splitting internally - saying 'goodbye' to the M relationship - that frees a person from their former partners. The D is not just a piece of paper.

D as a prereq for R ... not exactly a complete split, at least IMO. What you're proposing may work, but my reco is to talk about your plan in therapy and be ready to adjust.

D usually means an end to a relationship.

Relationships never end, they merely transform.

Ink. I truly value your opinion and I’m in no way looking to argue 😊. Just thinking out loud here…..

Divorce is a long and expensive process.

In most cases it is. Just a thought: if she’s truly remorseful and immediately goes along with a fair/legal settlement, via mediation, could it possibly be something less than a full-octane traumatic experience?

It has deep meaning to others in our social circles, most importantly the children, but family and friends as well.

Again, just a thought: by the completion of the D, perhaps it becomes more clear whether she has become a legit candidate for R by way of miraculous inner transformation. If so, they stay together physically, and there’s not actually a monumental shift in life for everyone. On the other hand, if by this time she’s not changed, not a candidate for R (I’m thinking of your XW Ink), then I hope we could agree he’s better off. Yes ofc the D would impact everyone, but that’s on OP’s wife - not him whatsoever.

Divorcing and then considering R certainly could be done, but if it’s done as a symbolic consequence to the WS, there is a lot of collateral damage. I hardly regard it as an obvious choice.

Absolutely not a symbolic move. My reasoning is in the previous para. Just thinking out loud here.

If this becomes a thread jack, please feel free to shut it down, Gemmy.

In most cases it is. Just a thought: if she’s truly remorseful and immediately goes along with a fair/legal settlement, via mediation, could it possibly be something less than a full-octane traumatic experience?

"Fair" is an incredibly loaded word when dividing up assets that your future life plans are tied to. Thinking like this is conflating her love for OP with her own lifelong self preservation, that if she is willing to gamble everything she has it demonstrates her love. Sounds like the KISA nonsense we’re trying to talk him out of. It just adds more volatility and complexity to the situation, IMO. Let her come back as a dignified partner, not a boot licker.

Again, just a thought: by the completion of the D, perhaps it becomes more clear whether she has become a legit candidate for R by way of miraculous inner transformation.

He’s already filed and is in the required waiting process. What if she has the miraculous transformation next week? Would you still think that he should split the retirement accounts, change the name of deeds on the house, take out loans to buy her out of equity or sell the only home the children know?

From Gemmy’s descriptions, she is not close to a good R candidate right now, but he still is holding out some hope. All I’m saying is that if the miracle comes, there is no shame in canceling the legal proceedings.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:32 PM, Saturday, July 25th]

It also acknowledges that I am not proud of what the last fifteen years have become, and I am no longer willing to preserve the appearance of a marriage at the expense of my own dignity.

That is a very very mild way of putting it I must say.

Gemmy, if you stay with your WW, I *guarantee* GUARANTEE your WW's family will be *snickering* at you. They will not view you as this noble man, you will instead be looked upon as The Chump Of The Year. I mean, your ENTIRE marriage was a lie with your WW's family complicit in it. Do you really want to stay with this woman, and have to keep breaking bread with your betrayers? Even Jesus stopped breaking bread with his betrayer after only that one time!

And....how do you know your WW made fun of you to only 5 people? Do you believer her? I sure as effin hell would not!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:59 PM, Sunday, July 26th]

WBFA, neither Gemmy nor anyone else should choose their spouse based on what other people think. He is a grown man who can make up his mind for himself. He’s taking his time to do that. He basically has nothing to do with his in laws anyway, if I recall correctly.

I disagree with this 1000%.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:16 AM, Monday, July 27th]

I'm going to bring up a larger point, one I've seen largely IGNORED here on SI.

Our woman can either be our *pride and joy* or our *ball-n-chain*. She is either our inspiration or the weak link in our life. She is either our ride-or-die or someone we gotta sleep with our eyes open around. She will either MAKE US PROUD or she will EMBARRASS THE HELL outta us. And no man I mean NO man wants to be stuck with a woman that engenders other men to pity him or snicker at him. IT's just going to bring him down.

Gemmy, 2,5,8,15 years from now, do you really want people to say 'man she really pulled one over on him, ex-AP was really crowing about everything, I can't believe he stayed with her. Poor guy whatta chump...'. I know people on SI are above all that (yeah right) but the rest of the world..is not. And...you're gonna be kicking yourself when you see some guy show up with a beautiful woman who adores him and you're stuck w ol- ball-n-chain.

Sad but true. This all may sound cruel and offensive but I've seen these things play out and I'm just trying to save you a lifetime of pain. So choose wisely my friend.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:40 PM, Monday, July 27th]

** Member to Member **

1) WBFA's post just above this one is a product of binary thinking, but life is primarily analog.

2) It's also cheerleading for running your life on what you fantasize others may think of you. That's co-dependence writ large.

3) It also predicts the future, which ignores the facts 1) that there are many other possible outcomes and 2) that human beings are not given the ability to predict the future.

I would of course disagree with WBFA..

A affair is inexcusable — all ws do inexcusable things. Some of us do make our way back to an asset column.

(Not that I think Gemmy should R-I don’t think anyone including Gemmy knows what’s right yet)

However, in the aftermath of all that happens in a betrayal there are many ws who become greater asset because they had to learn some very hard lessons, and despite creating an intolerable messy situation.

I agree who you are married to can take you down or help you go higher. I agree right now the track record here isn’t great, and she isn’t where you would want someone to be in reconciling. But I don’t know of any situation that there are guarantees in either direction. I don’t know of many ws who started out of the gate as a role model for doing it all perfectly. If they had those skills and awareness to begin with they likely would not have cheated.

I think we both want Gemmy to focus on himself and heal though. Leaning into this relationship at this time would not be what I would advise. It’s okay with me if he wants to delay the final decision of an outcome as long as he is focused on his own needs, which to me it sounds like starting therapy is a good start to that.

As for the divorce —my impression is sort of like this is token because the outcome of the relationship has not really been decided. But I have seen it work for other members- Mr and Mrs South Africa divorced in the same way, with the intention there could be a reconciliation. There was one and they remarried. We have had others over the years but I remember them best because they came back and told us. It usually seems to be there to help a mental block thing.

My husband and I worked out a filing after we thought we’d been working to reconcile for 10 months. (We wasted a lot of energy on that being the main focus) I agreed to good terms for him. It was an exercise that I think benefited us both because we did let go of the outcome. But it was not a token divorce—-we were getting divorced and not getting back together. It seemed pretty final to both of us at the time.

The reality is we spent the first ten months spinning our wheels because the focus needed to be on individual healing, without it you are trying to repair something not repairable because both people are spiraling. Nothing she could do would fix this right at the moment. She is still the person who did the things because it takes a lot of work to take on everything and grow And up to now Gemmy has been pressuring himself for a decision he isn’t ready to make.

I don’t mind whether they divorce and then work on the relationship or they divorce and don’t work on the relationship. But all this is really fodder—-focus on healing, detachment, and clarity and objectivity wil come.

It’s not his family’s decision. It’s not ours. To think we know the right answer would be foolish. It’s his to figure out in time. And he can make it when he is ready.

Right now he is experiencing cognitive dissonance where two things at once are true: he loves his wife/he doesn’t know who his wife is. And that is NORMAL. Not shameful. Not unmanly. When people have been together for decades it doesn’t unravel neatly because there has been a divorce or the path to reconciliation is chosen.

The relationship as you know it is broken beyond repair. Whether two people heal and try to start again is not guaranteed, but it does happen.

No matter what happens it’s going to be hard and miserable for a while - so keep posting,

Keep going to therapy. It’s so hard to live in uncertainty, but if you can accept you will be uncertain for a while the answers will come and you won’t doubt them any longer.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:46 PM, Monday, July 27th]

Pretty sure the word "snickering" has gotten it’s tread worn off on this thread.

WBFA

Gemmy, if you stay with your WW, I *guarantee* GUARANTEE your WW's family will be *snickering* at you. They will not view you as this noble man, you will instead be looked upon as The Chump Of The Year.

I mean, I guess there will always be interaction with these people since Gemmy has kids with his WW, but... Does their opinion matter that much? If they're such awful people that they can hear "I am divorcing WW because there has been infidelity and I'm tired of trying to pretend the truth is otherwise," and still laugh at him for doing the difficult work required of reconciling with her afterwards, why should he care what they think? I would just maintain bare minimal, austerely-cordial contact with them-- nothing beyond what is strictly necessary for familial business and just polite enough to avoid further drama. One never needs more of that in life.

That's separate from WW making an effort to correct the record, of course, and assuming she doesn't.

Big agree with Sisoon and Hikingout re: binary thinking, codependence, and needing to focus on himself rather than the marriage right now.

Funny how often the latter is recommended (to both BS and WS) and how difficult it seems to be to enact, isn't it?

Funny how often the latter is recommended (to both BS and WS) and how difficult it seems to be to enact, isn't it?

Yes. In many ways it’s a foreign concept. How do you detach from someone who has been your partner? Especially when you still love them. It’s human nature to try and work towards the outcome you desire. To not engage that work feels like you are giving up on the relationship and there is rarely the feeling you know what you want to do early in.

I give this advice but it took a long time to learn that’s what we needed to do. It might be another phase of things that you have to grow into but I try and mention it as much as possible because it’s what usually brings a lot of objectivity to the situation. Hard to get to that point when your world has just imploded. No one knows how to do this stuff.

I think I for the ws though, the detachment is more about not internalizing the shame from what the bs needs to know and say. It’s better that the ws does work on making amends as part of their path all along if they if it they want R. Trust (not just reliability, but even helping the bs trust they want the relationship) is something that has to be continuously built while still working in the healing.

It’s a hard balance for either party but -For the bs they do not carry that sameresponsibility.

I actually think WBFA raises a point that holds a grain of truth and is well worth considering.

It is a simple fact that some people will lose respect for you if you choose to reconcile after a betrayal. Not everyone, of course, and it’s impossible to put an exact percentage on it, but those people definitely exist—and in my experience, they aren't particularly rare. I once knew a girl who repeatedly took back a partner who cheated on her. The collective vibe in our group shifted remarkably fast from outpouring support to collective eye-rolling, with people openly asking what on earth she expected to happen and suggesting she needed to find some self-respect.

Although that example was a woman taking back a man, the statistics across infidelity forums suggest this harsh judgement hits men who attempt reconciliation far harder. Furthermore, data collected from forum moderators shows that unfaithful wives face significantly more scathing responses than unfaithful husbands. The reasons behind this double standard are a whole other can of worms, blending everything from old-fashioned sexism to actual psychological differences between how men and women navigate relationship dynamics.

My point isn't that public opinion should ever be the sole reason to end a relationship, but it’s a completely valid variable to toss into the equation. Navigating infidelity is exhausting enough on its own; knowing that you're also sacrificing the respect of an unknown percentage of your social circle just adds extra dead weight to an already sinking ship.

It actually reminds me of a candid chat I had with a bisexual friend of mine. She admitted that the main reason she exclusively dated men wasn't down to a deep-seated preference, but simply because navigating the unsolicited judgement of same-sex dating felt like an unnecessary tax on her mental health. Sometimes, people just don't want the extra hassle, and honestly, who can blame them?

On the other hand, I've never once read or experienced a man getting that same loss of respect for deciding to leave a cheating partner. It's theoretically possible and I can imagine that view maybe more prevalent in specific religious communities but outside of that... generally people will go. Yep, that makes sense.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:50 PM, Monday, July 27th]

It is a simple fact that some people will lose respect for you if you choose to reconcile after a betrayal.

It is my personal experience that divorcing my lying, cheating ex resulted in her completely controlling the narrative on her side of the family and influencing people that I had decades of history with to see me in her twisted light. Does that mean that I should have stayed with her to prevent that?