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The closest I can relate to that is I told my husband he would like the guy. Looking back on it with great scrutiny, I think it was kind of like me giving my husbands blessing for him? Not exactly that, but I think there was some sort of mental bending I was doing there.

However, my husbands Ap was in our home a lot. But not supposedly for social reasons but for work. It doesn’t exactly translate. I think deep down he liked heightening the risk or something, but he does not agree with that assessment.

However, my brother in law had his AP and HER PARENTS To a bbq at their house along with a crowd of other people. My husband asked him why, and he said "because I was never going to leave (sis). I needed her to see that I couldn’t just rip up this part of my life. She had been pushing me to leave and I just wanted her to back off that". So basically a form of control.

Whether that translates or not, I don’t know.

My husband's supper thing is a puzzle for me. Even today he is at a loss to explain his thinking about that situation.

hikingout, for sure there was an element of wanting to control his infidelity path. From my understanding, his AP did suggest he leave the marriage during the time they were together. So maybe this was a way for him to show her what he thought he had was good at home, so she would back off.

But she stayed with him, and happily took him in, once I threw him out of our home on D-Day.

Trix123,

Question for the WS' on here, do you ever think of going back 'there' to her/them, even after all the good work?

My short answer is absolutely not. If a former AP ever crosses my mind now, it's a very brief thought that I have the proper tools to deal with. I no longer wish them well, ill, or anything in between. They are just people that I used to know.

For the first time in my life, I love myself in a healthy way, warts and all.

We are 5+ years out now from DDay. We've done a lot of hard work in a combination of IC and MC. I am no longer the same guy that I was and never want to be him again. Throwing all of that away just doesn't compute.

hikingout, for sure there was an element of wanting to control his infidelity path. From my understanding, his AP did suggest he leave the marriage during the time they were together. So maybe this was a way for him to show her what he thought he had was good at home, so she would back off.

But she stayed with him, and happily took him in, once I threw him out of our home on D-Day.

This all makes sense to me. She was pressuring him because she wanted for them to sail off together. He said as cake eating, and wanted to keep his arrangement as it was.

I think it could also be some manipulation on his part that she meet you so that she would maybe be more designated to want to hurt you as well. It’s all silly of course because the damage was already being done. Affair behavior is illogical because there is usually no long term plan past the day you are on.

She gladly took him in because that is what she wanted all along. I just think he didn’t really want that. I think despite it all he loved you and wanted his home with you. She was more of just sex/escapism for him. I think that was exactly how the ap in my situation was. He told me repeatedly he loved his wife so that I would know my place.

My husband's supper thing is a puzzle for me. Even today he is at a loss to explain his thinking about that situation.

I don't know how to put this in a way that won't be painful, so I'm going to follow my rule that betrayed spouses want the truth even when it hurts.

What I'm seeing him fumble to say is that he wanted to show the AP that you were no threat. She probably said some unpleasant things about you as part of her campaign to get him to leave you. He, lacking insight to her motivations, tried to prove to her, "Look, you've got it all wrong. My wife is decent and nice. She's not making any trouble for us." By showing her up close that your relationship was (in his characterization) platonic, he thought he could reassure her that her role as his romantic/sexual partner was secure and exclusive.

Of course, she saw something different. In her mind, he dragged her over there to witness the life she wanted -- a shared home, enmeshment, public acknowledgement -- that he had no plans to transfer to her. She didn't want proof that he could go on eating cake indefinitely. She wanted to replace you. She was angry and disillusioned, and the affair almost fell apart.

Your husband brought her home because he genuinely believed that each of you would be satisfied with your half of him. That's why it didn't even feel dangerous. He was in a very self-centered wayward mindset.

and the affair almost fell apart. That's why it didn't even feel dangerous. He was in a very self-centered wayward mindset.

BraveSirRobin,

I'd like to reassure you that I feel no pain at reading your post. I am past that. Thank you for your concern. What I was looking for is some sense of clarity, maybe not the truth for we were not there, but a sense of possibilities.
The affair almost fell apart on a few occasions. I think it was my husband who wanted it to stop. But he told me he could not as there was nothing for him to come home to. (Imagine how that made me feel...) Them living together for a few months also fell apart. I know it was my husband who left her once and for all, after I gave him an ultimatum on what he had to do to be able to return to me and my home. In that instance, I was the threat.

I have to wonder though, at the courage it takes for one who has wronged the other in such a sly way, to want to return and atone and change. In my mind, it does take guts. Or is it just a wayward expectation, that the once abandoned wife will receive him with open arms? For that was not quite the case.

She gladly took him in because that is what she wanted all along. I just think he didn’t really want that. I think despite it all he loved you and wanted his home with you.

hikingout,

Yes, as stupid (sorry) as his "loving me all along" sounds, I see that reluctantly. As I did meet this woman in my own home, I felt she was self absorbed, comfortable, direct and rude in questioning me about what I considered personal, and those questions I deflected to my husband, who answered them for me. It was not my truth, but at that point I did not care. I kept quiet.

In retrospect, gut feel here, I felt that she was just as manipulative as my husband. In fact, both of them were more alike in character than him and me. How is that even possible?

Did she want my husband, oh hell yes. Did my husband want her, hmmmm? He thought he did at that time. The new sex/escapism was a powerful draw for my husband.

I have to wonder though, at the courage it takes for one who has wronged the other in such a sly way, to want to return and atone and change. In my mind, it does take guts. Or is it just a wayward expectation, that the once abandoned wife will receive him with open arms? For that was not quite the case

Hard to say where this was for him. I don’t talk about this but when my h and I were first dating he was hung up on his ex girlfriend. I was a little naive about that. We had only been dating exclusively about a month (but had been seeing each other casually for six months), and he broke up with me for another chance with her. Not the same scale as a marriage but I did have strong feelings for him at the time.

She just wanted to see if she could get him back and then dumped him on his head. He called her his soul mate.

At the time I felt like I was his second choice. But I did love him, there hadn’t been any lies or betrayal and I knew the girl was a complicated mess and really wasn’t the type that would last long term. She was a hot mess express.

I think for him, he knew I was stable, a little more predictable, and I think he did know I would take him back. BUT, I also know that he is still glad to this day that I did take him back and that I was a much better life partner for him than she e would have ever been. Even with my affair, it’s not even close.

So if it was courage or knowing he could rely on me, I don’t know. In the end it’s how he feels about those decisions and outcomes that I focus on. As well as how I feel about them. And we have had a lot of great years and experiences since then. We have I really had a great marriage with some turbulent years surrounding the affairs. But knowing that I would still take him every time.

It’s not the same because with a betrayal it’s all tied within a trauma. I don’t see that time in my life as a trauma. I was aware of thier situation when we were casually dating, and his confusion set in at a time that we were not years into something. But I think when we reconcile, it takes a level of reframing in order to cope with what has happened. We have to decide for ourselves without judgment and shame. I found releasing that even from his affair is that I know I have decided to be with the person who is best for me. I am doing what I want to do and realizing that is empowering.

Sometimes I think that clarity can’t be achieved because the satisfaction over the rest of the relationship may not be high enough to frame things in that way. How do you feel about your relationship today?

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:09 PM, Thursday, August 1st]

How do you feel about your relationship today?

Our relationship today consists of multiple things that we do for one another, that create calm, acceptance, hope, care, kindness, frustration, impatience, judgements, criticisms, uncertainties, humour etc. Hey, we are human.

But my life is so much more than just our relationship. That’s how I want to see it. Even though we have 45 years of togetherness, I did have a prior life. And I do have a life of my own today.

I am not defined by my reconciliation. It is but a part of my life. I am not defined by our 45 year relationship either. I am defined by who I am today, what I am today and how I act today.

Today, I am content with my whole life. Which includes the relationship with my husband and with our respective family members.

Wonderful! I do not feel defined by my reconciliation or our marriage either. I think that’s very healthy.

Other people will never understand unless they have been there themselves and I think that our society makes it even harder to fathom how we should feel about our path. I try to remember if I am satisfied in the relationship and satisfied with myself, that says a lot. Some people go their whole lives without that feeling.

I think sometimes it’s hard for me to get the answers out of my husband that are deeper too. Not because he is withholding but it’s the depth of his thought processes around certain things that even though I am a ws I can’t relate or fathom what he is telling me. I think the answer he gives is truthful but he is a lot more "face value" than I am.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:55 AM, Friday, August 2nd]

What was the "point of no return" in your affair? What was the boundary that you crossed that made you push the gas instead of pumping the brakes.

For most BS it seems out first instinct is to believe once it got to sex there was no turning back...but by the time sex was involved you must have been in too deep already.

TrayDee

For me, it was when I kissed her for the first time. I was able to explain away the things in my mind up to that point without any real guilt. The FB messaging? Well that was just old friends catching up. The lunch that led up to that first kiss? I was meeting her at work, out in the open so how bad could it be?

when I walked her back to her car, it was still "innocent" in my mind. Then we kissed and I knew I had crossed the proverbial line. After that, there was no hesitation at all.

Tray Dee,

Ihave been trying to think about your question today because I saw it this morning and tried to respond but was having a hard time formulating how to describe it.

The point of no return in this instance means when did I know we would have sex? I am not sure I understand. Or maybe it means when did I recognize I was in an affair?

I knew I was doing the wrong thing when we were texting outside of work the first time. It was easy to say it was harmless, but he did live very far away so that added to feeling like it couldn’t really get too out of hand.

I think there were different points that boundaries were pushed that would make me think well, that’s it I am officially having an affair. Like the exchanging of pictures or inappropriate conversations.

I became emotionally invested in a very short period of time. When you have those smaller epiphanies of "it’s getting out of hand" , you push it down and you tell yourself things, bent narratives to keep the bad feelings at bay and to allow the escapism to take over more. It is cliche to say but I was in the "he must be my soulmate" camp

So when we had the next business trip about six weeks into this nonsense, the sex was pretty much a forgone conclusion. Though I did have a hard time warming up when we were in each others presence. The fantasy of who he was in a far off distant chat and being gave to face was a very different feeling and part of me almost didn’t go through with it. But I knew saying no that things would be over and I wasn’t ready to call it off either.

So I just have a hard time pinpointing what you are asking and where that line was for me. I think the answer is when we were first texting? Because it made me reliant on the affair feelings and his attention? He’d already made it abundantly clear he was interested in having sex with me prior to the texting. I had a hard time l believing anyone would find me desirable r worthy of passion. I was a wrung out dish towel at this time. I was exhausted and burned out and someone finding me attractive at my lowest point made me take an interest in myself again. Albeit, it was still a very unhealthy interest. It is was like I was drinking in that energy. It gave the need of having him in my life too much power. A much better thing would have been to recognize that I needed to slow down and be gentler with myself. Instead I did everything to seem more and more attractive for him. I was creative in trying to be clever, I was pretending to be the vibrant person I wished I still was. I lost weight, bought new clothes, the whole nine. Classic mid life stuff.

Trying to be transparent here but I am not sure I know the answer. The turning point I guess was when I put so much effort in my identity to being who he might want because I was so desperate to be seen again for me - but ironically I wasn’t showing him me anymore than I was showing my husband. I had spent half my life just being who I thought a man would want. I couldn’t possibly be loved for me. And of course that’s deep beneath the surface stuff, because consciously I wasn’t thinking any of those things.

I wish I could have seen all of this t unfortunately eat that point in my life I let it feel like it was the only thing I had going for me. And it all happened very fast.

Thanks ff4152

For me, it was when I kissed her for the first time. I was able to explain away the things in my mind up to that point without any real guilt. The FB messaging? Well that was just old friends catching up. The lunch that led up to that first kiss? I was meeting her at work, out in the open so how bad could it be?

when I walked her back to her car, it was still "innocent" in my mind. Then we kissed and I knew I had crossed the proverbial line. After that, there was no hesitation at all.

When you said "After that, there was no hesitation at all" was it a breaking in your emotionally where all defenses and boundaries were gone?

Or

Was it a feeling in you that it was so exhilarating and felt so good that there was no way you were letting this go?

Thanks Hikingout,

Ihave been trying to think about your question today because I saw it this morning and tried to respond but was having a hard time formulating how to describe it.

The point of no return in this instance means when did I know we would have sex? I am not sure I understand. Or maybe it means when did I recognize I was in an affair?

I think you have answered the question as you see it.

I guess another way to ask it is at what point did you know you couldn't or wouldn't stop the A from progressing?

One of the biggest sticking points for me is that she wrestled with herself about many individual things as the A went on, but she didn't end it. I guess I wonder what did he do, or what was the moment that she felt whatever it was that made all hesitation and second thoughts dissipate.

One of the biggest sticking points for me is that she wrestled with herself about many individual things as the A went on, but she didn't end it. I guess I wonder what did he do, or what was the moment that she felt whatever it was that made all hesitation and second thoughts dissipate.

I could definitely describe the same thing. Different points that I thought I needed to get out of it. There many moments I wrestled with myself.

However, I don’t think it was him doing something to get her hesitation to stop. It was her. It was whatever narrative that was driving the bus here. I don’t think the AP had any special power of persuasion. I think the affair feelings likely did.

And you might say aren’t the affair feelings because of him?

I do t think so. I think the affair feelings are a hefty cocktail of adrenaline and dopamine. It’s keeping that feeling, that dependency.

But most ws (outside of very few exceptions) that I have spoken with privately or even publicly describe their cognitive dissonance, the state of holding two or more beliefs at once. It turns into mental gymnastics because part of us doesn’t like what we are doing. The other part can’t resist what we are doing. And again, I think it’s not because the ap is great, more desirable, more charming, funnier, more clever, etc it because the affair feelings are euphoric. There are all these mini negotiations just to prolong it a bit longer.

The irony is if you look into this deeper, you will learn that it’s considered the predictable psychological response to the instability of the situation. The more the two people having the affair have these times when they are pulling away or trying to end it makes the upswing of giving in to the escapism higher. And this high low pendulum creates an addiction because it becomes more and more painful to think of giving it up but you know you want to give it up. This is where that constant negotiation and justification to self begins.

"Well my husband is ——, remember that time (never mind this happened 10 years ago) when he ——-, see he really doesn’t love me"

"This is a person I can’t seem to put down they must be my soul mate. This must have been meant to be"

"Just one more week…"

I can remember crying after the first sexual conversation. But the next day I was up and back at it all again.

And I mean there is no denying we chose this path, but it’s difficult I explain how that path kind of gains a momentum that you grow reliant on. That’s why I think the point of no return often happens in the initial stages of the affair. This is when you are thinking most clearly and least effected by the predictable psychological response.

I am not blaming it on that response either. I don’t think you ever lose track of what your are doing is wrong. But most give in to the highs coming from the instability and they chase them just like someone chases nicotine or gambling or whatever. I am not saying that I had no control over the situation, just illustrating that there is a huge draw to that chemical cocktail that at the time you are attributing to this other person.

But clearly most of the time, by my own experience and hearing countless stories on this site, the other person isn’t great. A normal dating situation I don’t even think he would have been on my radar. He was 20 years older than me but in some ways looked to be 30 more. I knew him to be a serial cheater, we had different sensibilities, religious backgrounds, and in reality there were times he didn’t treat me very well - his veil would slip and show me I meant nothing to him. Still I would find ways to convince myself that this was something special enough to throw my life away.

So I guess I am saying this- affairs are not logical, and when you try and look at it from a lens of what it’s like to be single and date, there are dynamics at play that are hard to relate to. When you date someone and there isn’t all this risk and instability, there isn’t the same chemical cocktail. Sure, often you are infatuated with one another, but it’s because you really like them.

In an affair you like how it feels, and I would contend it has more to do with seeing yourself a certain way than taking a good look at the AP. Having that surge of adrenaline and dopamine made me feel invincible, vibrant, young, sexy. I think affairs are more self adulation than they are about having a real relationship with that other person. Most of the qualities I attributed to him were entirely made up. When the therpist asked me months later what he was like and then how did he show that - I was baffled to discover he didn’t. And she helped me see I needed to see him like that to validate the feelings I was having about myself. If he wasn’t great then maybe I wasn’t younger, sexier, more vibrant.

I don’t like a lot of what Esther pearl says about affairs but I do agree that most people have them to experience a different version of themselves.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:08 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

I want to add one more thing-

If I loved the AP, really cared about his well being, was doing things that made him happy instead of just me-

I wouldn’t have had an affair with him. I didn’t love anyone in this situation. I wasn’t acting in my own best interest. I could have permanently lost my marriage. I did lose a number of years of my marriage, my happiness. I risked my job. I also risked my financial security in that together my husband and I had a lot of investments. I readily signed them over to him in the first draft of our divorce because I didn’t really care about myself.

If I had cared about me, I would have had empathy and caring over others. If I had said man I don’t want to act in my worst interest, and I don’t want you to do that either. (I certainly would not have done all the destruction to my husband either but I am focused here on proof there really isn’t the caring that goes in most affairs the way people imagine). Instead, I manipulated him by being what he wanted so that I could get what I wanted. That’s not the stakes one should go into in a loving relationship.

Affairs are so transactional, and so much more about the person that is having one than anyone else involved.

So it wasn’t him that influenced or inspired my decisions. He was conveniently there, willing to be as bad as I was, and willing to be just as transactional.

I think the question is really, what was your wife seeking, what did she think it would bring to her, and mindset. She chose to cross those lines to get something she wanted from the situation and that became a greater need for her than her integrity or stopping it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:14 PM, Sunday, August 4th]

TrayDee

When you said "After that, there was no hesitation at all" was it a breaking in your emotionally where all defenses and boundaries were gone?

If I were to be completely candid, my boundaries were pretty weak to begin with. While I never actively sought to have an affair, it didn't take much for one to occur. Once that kiss occurred, any real hesitation was gone.

Was it a feeling in you that it was so exhilarating and felt so good that there was no way you were letting this go?

For quite some time, it was exciting. My AP would tell me what a great guy I was and made no real demands of me. The A occurred in a bubble where my outside life wasn't allowed to intrude. Over time, the shinyness wore off and out meetups became rather routine. There were some significant life events that occurred which made me really think about what I was doing. Finding SI opened my eyes and gave me the knowledge I needed to end the A.

I have a question regarding any negative physical responses to your betrayal of your primary partner. At any point did you experience stomachs pains, headaches,perhaps associated with a rise in blood pressure, or a general malaise when you began your affair. At about three or four weeks into her affair my WW started to suffer from constant, sharp stomach pains and debilitating headaches that persisted for.nearly a week before she saw our family doctor. After a thorough work up which included x-rays and bloodwork ( This was in early 70's, long before the advent of CT Scans and MRI's.Our doctor told WW that there was.nothing.physically wrong with her. He additionally told WW that " She had a dark secret causing internal stress"..Coincidentally, I had an appointment with the same family doctor for some routine tests about a fortnight later during which he suggested I should have a discussion with WW about the results of his examination of her. WW just blew smoke up.my.posterior, and I was too naive, trusting and completely emotionally invested in our.marriage to doubt her word. Only.later did I realize that my doctor worked with and referred patients to my wW's surgeon AP and I'm sure the locker room scuttlebutt included the news tha doctor E....was now banging a.married nurse.My wife.
Anyway I have.long wondered if other Waywards ever experienced similar symptoms, and if so, how.long did they.last?

This sounds like anxiety and the symptoms manifest sometimes physically. Back at that tome so little was known about anxiety, anxiety disorders, panic disorders, etc.

At the same time it could have been a way to say symptoms that could wave off sex?

I did experience anxiety and depression during my affair but do not recall physical manifestations of this. Everyone presents a little differently in that way. I answered because we do not have many ws answering these right now, but perhaps someone else will see this and have more info.

How long does shame last and how did you deal with it?

I have a (f)WW who I acknowledge has truly improved. In being vulnerable, in coping, in communication etc.

Just crossed the 2nd DDAY antiversary and I had quite a few triggers.

After stabilizing I apologized and we try to move on.

But she still ruminates regularly, unprovoked by me, about "feeling bad about what she did and how awful she was".

I can tell it hurts her, and that hurts me, and she senses that and hurts more. It's just a spiral. It really sucks but her actions are the cause.