SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m going to try to find the right words for this.

In so many threads, BSs are enraged by the continued lying by their WSs. The lying hurts reconciliation (whatever that is).

Many reasons are ascribed to the WS continuing to lie.

But perhaps the number one reason is that the WS is trying not to lose their BS, trying not to hurt them further.

I suppose that’s two reasons, but then they’re reasons one and two.

But not wanting to lose your BS, not wanting to hurt them, is a good thing, isn’t it?

When a BS learns that their WS was lying about something, is it the lie, or the truth that has been revealed, that is really the problem?

Do BSs believe that the lying is manipulative, they’re being manipulated into reconciling, that if they had the full truth, they might walk?

The WS doesn’t want to lose the BS, but the BS isn’t so sure they want to be kept.

It’s not the lying that threatens reconciliation, it’s the truth. The lying threatens agency.

In so many sources, waywards report that "affair sex" was the best sex of their lives. Lots of reasons for that.

How many "reconciled" BSs were told by their WS that sex was better with the AP? I’ll bet that number can be rounded to zero. How many ask? That truth threatens reconciliation. Better lied about.

So in summation: please, WS, lie about some things, just don’t let me catch you. There’s only so much truth I can take.

But perhaps the number one reason is that the WS is trying not to lose their BS, trying not to hurt them further.

I don’t believe that for one minute. The reason for trickle truth is the adulterer is feverishly working to protect THEMSELVES from further embarrassment, shame, and especially any worse consequences then they’re already facing.

I’m sorry to say you are projecting the values of a "good person" (yourself) onto someone willing to commit the deepest of all betrayals. You are wrong to do so, imho.

** Member to Member **

IMO, abstractions and generalizations are antithetical to healing. Further, IMO, even musing on the idea that one can read enough minds to draw generalizations is lying to oneself - there's no way anyone here can know why other people lie. At best, we can know why we lie ourselves and what other people have said about why they lie.

So ... what are you trying to accomplish, Fpp? My bet is you're trying to work something out about your own pain, and my reco is to go directly for that.

My W lied to primarily protect herself, IMO. From the testimony of WSes here, I'd say that's more common than lying to protect the BS, but I wouldn't bet much on that.

I go back to: What is your goal in asking a question that cannot be answered with anything but 'the literal answer to this Q is unknown and unknowable'?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:57 PM, Sunday, March 30th]

FPP, I agree that there’s lots of posts at the moment with regards to WS lying including my own but I my opinion is we all lie for various reasons.
I believe on some occasions my WH has lied to self preserve and some to prevent further pain, at times TT has had me on the verge of not wanting to exist anymore.
I asked WH if AP was better at kissing than me, the look on his face told me the answer and he said no, I reminded him that we’ve been married 25 years and I know when he’s lying to which he replied, ‘I don’t want to hurt you, she wasn’t better just different’. TBH I’d have preferred him to dig his heels in and lie because the truth was like talking an arrow to the head.
In retaliation whilst carefully removing the arrow from my head I told him about a lie I’d told, I said ‘remember when you’ve asked in the past if you are the (biggest) most well endowed man I’ve ever been with, I told you yes?, I lied…..you’re not!’.
I’d told my lie like most women to protect but then I used the truth to cause pain.
Truth is truth if we want it we must give it and be bold enough to take it on the chin.

Oh, hell no. Do not lie to me about anything. Ever.

I’m one of those who grilled the hell out of my husband and asked for all the minute details. Obviously, sex is exciting. It’s more exciting with somebody new. Be for real about that - and everything else, or get the fuck out of my life. I’m trying to be real, I expect you to be real and raw and transparent and authentic, and if you’re too much of a wimp to do that, I don’t want you.

And if you’re a BS who can’t handle the truth, maybe R isn’t for you.

My question was not about me, but I will say this:

If I ever stupidly asked my WW who was better in bed, me or AP, she better say me, if she wants to stay married.

Would the truth be me? Good for me.

Would the truth be AP? She’d better lie, convincingly, and never let me find out the truth.

But here’s what I’m trying to say about this.

It isn’t that I don’t want my illusions shattered. I have none about this. AP was older, more worldly, no doubt more experienced.

No, that’s not it.

What it is is that I would want my wife to care enough about me, enough about us, to lie. To not hurt me with the truth.

So my post isn’t about me.

It’s about several threads I’ve been following.

That seem so helpless.

"I want to reconcile, but the truth is too much. And the lying is too much."

So, the truth brings divorce; lying brings divorce, which perhaps neither wants.

So what is the way forward?

Maybe start by accepting that the lying may come from caring.

So, the truth brings divorce; lying brings divorce, which perhaps neither wants.

So what is the way forward?

Maybe start by accepting that the lying may come from caring.

Speaking for myself: Hell. To. The. No

What you are not factoring in here is the temporary effects of grief and trauma. Yes, people are stuck post d-day. It’s very common, a result of the foundations of people’s lives getting destroyed. But just like you are only temporarily foggy from getting sucker punched, the stun of the betrayal wears off. And when it does, many (not all) have absolutely no appetite for a future built on lies with a partner they can’t trust.

If you don’t want to ask your wife who was a better lover, I would only ask you: why? If it is because it doesn’t trouble you, then fantastic, go and be happy. But if it nags you, eats at you, and you won’t ask because you fear it may lead to divorce, then I think you are doing yourself a disservice. That shit is corrosive to the soul, and you are hanging on to a fifty gallon drum.

There is no set of lies, no fantasy, that would ever be sturdy enough to support a good life.

There is no set of lies, no fantasy, that would ever be sturdy enough to support a good life.

THIS. Over and over.

If my "happiness’ is built on believing bullshit in order to protect my, what?, ego?? Or illusion? No thanks.

I’ve lived a life where I was kept in the dark about my WH’s true feelings about me. There is just no way I ever want to believe ANYTHING that isn’t true, particularly about our relationship. I have no desire to be patronized and no need to be. I’m a grown ass woman. I don’t need to be told or believe things that aren’t true ever again.

And I definitely don’t need anyone in my life who doesn’t respect me enough to be honest.

To each his own, I guess, but I don’t believe that lying in this way is a kindness in any way, shape or form. Particularly not when it’s coming from a WS who has used lying in all sorts of destructive and disrespectful ways already.

After lying to cover his ass, to hide his A, to justify his bad behavior by lying about me, to gaslight me that it was somehow my fault that he cheated, and a million other shitty, ass-covering, cowardly, self-deluding reasons, there is just no way that I could ever convince myself or allow him to convince me and himself that now, suddenly, he ONLY lies to be kind and protect me.

Nope.

Beautifully said, Ink.

Also, this, 100%:

I have no desire to be patronized and no need to be. I’m a grown ass woman. I don’t need to be told or believe things that aren’t true ever again.

And I definitely don’t need anyone in my life who doesn’t respect me enough to be honest.

You wanna really piss me off? Patronize me.

I spent 14 years being gaslit and patronized, being told that he could never cheat on me, and that I was the only one he wanted. Lies, of course. I'd rather hear a hard truth than a beautiful, patronizing lie. Untruths, even nice ones, are a barrier to true intimacy. Nitty gritty, raw, real, open - that's where I want to live.

Maybe start by accepting that the lying may come from caring.

The lying WS already tried to protect me from harm with the lies about their infidelity. Am i going to make a list of things for them that it is acceptable to lie about in order to preserve the marriage, my feelings, ...... In my opinion that accepting the WS lying would not by any stretch be a healthy for either of the individuals or the relationship.

I prefer the truth always.

Lying ends relationships.

[This message edited by Ripped62 at 7:27 PM, Monday, March 31st]

I believe that truth is as good for the ws as it is for the bs. So let’s talk about that a bit.

As the ws, what I believe my responsibility was mostly to figure out why I did what I did, how it was made possible and then work on those things to become an improved partner.

So when I started digging into my issues it went very deep pretty quickly and took some time to dig through:

1. I y started with acknowledging I did it because wanted to do it. That’s always the simplest, but it doesn’t tell you much, right?

2. Why did I want to do it? Because I was deeply unhappy and it felt good.

3. Why was I deeply unhappy? That’s when it gets deep. I had to go back from childhood forward. I had deep shame over sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and all the ways those things made me not fit in with my peers. I deeply fear rejection, abandonment, and criticism and this guided my development and ultimately who I became as a wife. I was as close to a stepford wife one probably could get without the sci-fi, but just like with the stepfords wives, it just became more complicated and dark.

4. I overcompensated by becoming a people pleasing perfectionist. I became such a High achiever that I wore myself out and didn’t know who I was anymore. I played the role that I believed would yield me the most love until I wasn’t healthy. The affair in many ways was me looking for me.

5. This revealed to me that all I wanted was to be loved but felt I had to earn it by by overdoing for everyone, not really giving regard to my worth or what I needed, until I resented my husband so much for making me work so hard for his love, yet I never had many deep conversations with him, just surface nagging.

If you break that down I had retreated into my own illogical world in which staying married meant staying in that martyrdom because I couldn’t imagine a different marriage. So feeling entitled from all my sacrifices I had an affair to blow up the marriage I no longer wanted.

I had to dig and realize it wasn’t the marriage that was untenable, it was the mess my head had gotten to. I had to steer by being honest with myself.

So all that to say, the ws has to come to terms with themselves and explain it in a truthful way in which they can talk about their motivations for each step. Then what can happen is practicing the opposite so we don’t end up in the same place again.

1. I had to stop people pleasing or being concerned with being perfect.

2. I needed to give my husband a full account of the affair so he knew what I knew. Sexual details is something that the bs needs to control what they want to know. But if they want to know they deserve to know the truth regardless of what they decide to do with that truth.

3. My main goals had to become being more authentic, true to myself. Doing things out of love and not obligation, taking care of my needs and wants, and that required stop being avoidant.

Now, how does that happen while I am still lying and creating more feelings of shame for myself. It doesn’t.

The cure for me was I needed to be honest at all times, to become braver, to feel worthy of the love I so badly wanted. And that requires no lying.

And for me, lying to his face would have just kept me in a world of shame.

What you are describing is rugsweeping. I needs to step into the light, live wholesomely, and truthfully. As much as he felt he needed the truth.

Also for the foundation to be put properly back in the marriage I needed to build trust with my husband. That meant telling him all sorts of things my avoidant self would have loved to skip over. But because I told the hard truths it helped him to have the ability to make up his mind on factual information.

If you are unable to hear the ap was a better lover, then i imagine you are not in a minority. However, you want the person to trick you so you can stay married?

I don’t know if you had lovers before your wife, but truthfully sex is sex. The only time it’s bad sex is when the other person isn’t as into it as you are, or maybe they are inconsiderate over your needs. What always makes it better is love and communication. If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you.

But all the other questions- did you do this or that, they are factual events that by bringing your spouse into the truth of it - it removes the intimacy the ws and the ap shared because now it’s in the light. It helps to ly down all the secrets because that is not only what the bs needs to form trust but also what the ws needs to relieve shame.

Lying is a block towards intimacy. Intimacy requires vulnerability. Until the ws can be vulnerable enough with the bs to be truthful and authentic, true reconciliation can not occur. Any reason the ws doesn’t want to come clean is a way of blocking themselves from living their best life.

Maybe it helps to see that from a ws who is not trying to be punitive by getting others to walk into their own light. In many ways my husband accepting me for me and all the parts even the dark ones was the greatest act of love. It made me want to be better and still does.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:52 PM, Wednesday, April 2nd]

Lying is a block towards intimacy. Intimacy requires vulnerability. Until the ws can be vulnerable enough with the bs to be truthful and authentic, true reconciliation can not occur.

So much this!

I'd rather be divorced than be with a liar.

If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you.

Can you clarify this, please? It seems to be contradicting the rest of your post.

"If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you."

And precisely my point, I think.

If they love you, they shouldn’t tell you that.

Even if it’s true.

If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you.

And precisely my point, I think.

If they love you, they shouldn’t tell you that.

Even if it’s true.

And this is why ANY A will always be a dealbreaker for me. It opens up Pandora's Box. Most A sex is good sex because it is A sex. It may not be better just different or it may be better. If the BS doesn't know "None the wiser." I don't ever want to be in that position again.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 6:14 PM, Wednesday, April 2nd]

Formerpeopleperson,

You wrote;

"If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you."

And precisely my point, I think.

If they love you, they shouldn’t tell you that.

Even if it’s true.

i am trying to follow your logic. You ask your spouse if they are having an affair. They are. If they love you they should not tell you because they love you?

If someone tells you after decades of marriage their affair partner is better in bed, maybe it’s better you are left to be able to divorce that person. They don’t love you.

Can you clarify this, please? It seems to be contradicting the rest of your post.

Yes sorry that wasn’t clear-

It was an extension of what I wrote before it:

I don’t know if you had lovers before your wife, but truthfully sex is sex. The only time it’s bad sex is when the other person isn’t as into it as you are, or maybe they are inconsiderate over your needs. What always makes it better is love and communication.

What I was trying to say but didn’t spell it out well is that to me sex is better with someone you love. I don’t consider the affair sex to be special or even about love.Maybe that’s just me but I don’t think that if you love your spouse and want to be with them that you will be silently over in the corner wishing for sex with the affair partner or glamorizing it. I am not saying you should lie if it was better, but I think if that is your true stance I don’t see how you could love your spouse. A ws worth reconciling with with should be able to recognize fools gold from true gold.

Does that make better sense?

Maybe some people do think their ap is better in bed. I am thinking though that doesn’t sound remorseful or disgusted over what you did. I personally have listened to many ws in private messages and I have never encountered one that had that stance. The ws who have said it were not remorseful and still pining for their ap.

I just don’t think remorse, commitment to marriage would have one saying you liked someone else better, not even to yourself.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:38 PM, Wednesday, April 2nd]

Thanks, h/o. It wasn't clear who you were referring to as "they".

The connection that happens during sex with someone you love is certainly deeper and richer, but as far as the sex act itself being better because of love? That seems a little fairy tale naive to me. I know that my H has had more adventurous sex with other people, because he got stuck in the Philippines for a week before we started dating and did what the majority of 19yo single Marines would do in that situation. I know without a doubt that he wants me more than anyone else, and he loves and lusts after me, but I don't take offense to him having enjoyed the pro(s) being better at certain acts than I am, or doing things that I won't do.

I definitely grilled H about all the minute details of the sex that he had with the AP. It's been 20 years, so I don't remember the details, but I can't see myself getting terribly upset if he told me that she was better at giving oral sex. We both know that, while I'll do it, it's not a particular passion of mine. And AP was working that partner-poacher angle really hard. (Pun intended.)

I've encountered people here who wish that their WS had never told them anything, not even that they'd cheated. Some people (me) want the cold, hard truth and aaaaall the details, and some people... don't. I get FPP's point of kind lies, but after so many years of mind-fuck deception, I'd rather hear the painful truth than yet another deception.

And that's what it boils down to, really - don't you dare decide for me what I can handle and what I can't. Like my MC recommended: The BS should be careful about what they ask for and make sure that they really want to know, and the WS should always answer truthfully. If I don't want that information, I won't ask for it. If you don't want that info, FPP, don't ask for it.

The connection that happens during sex with someone you love is certainly deeper and richer, but as far as the sex act itself being better because of love? That seems a little fairy tale naive to me. I know that my H has had more adventurous sex with other people, because he got stuck in the Philippines for a week before we started dating and did what the majority of 19yo single Marines would do in that situation.

But I am not talking about sex that happened before marriage. And I think you are missing the point- it’s not just because of love, that is one thing though.

I had an ex boyfriend who was the best kisser out of anyone. I don’t regret knowing that, I was free to date him at the time I did. He also had the largest anatomy of any male I have ever seen. But we did not have a mental connection at all, and personally when it comes to loving someone that’s more important to me. I don’t need to be my husbands best, hell I am his third wife.I wouldn’t find it to be my business if he liked head better from one of his other wives. We have never talked about it. (My guess is he didn’t though because I am the opposite of you in that regard, I will leave it at that lol)

What I am saying is affair sex is not about love, and it doesn’t matter what happened with the Ap, a remorseful ws should be disgusted by the sex and definitely disgusted in describing it to the spouse. It should be ruined. Saying it was better than with you, says they are not disgusted by it. It’s the remorse piece that I am talking about. Though I admit I am not communicating as clearly today as I usually do.

I think tell the truth, yes. But honestly I don’t think there are huge differences for me as far as sex goes with anyone I have been with. My husband has been my longest sexual partner, I love him, I am comfortable with him and to me that makes it the best. I don’t have to be performative, I can just be me. Affair sex is not like that.