SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Feelingvulnerable, how are you doing?

Bumped by request from Feelingvulnerable

Hello all,
Lots has happened since I was on last.. It's been a rollercoaster to say the least!
We had a serious amount of couples and some individual councilling.
The councilor was very neutral and looked at both sides. Agreed that the affair was wrong, but a lot about the disconnect pre affair that lead to it.. This is always uncomfortable for me, because I always felt we were solid, but it looks like we were disconnected, my W couldn't come to me for advice because I was dismissive sometimes, and then HE came along and talked the talk to get her comfortable with him on a friendly basis, then turned up the heat when it felt right, and backed off when too much.. At the end of the day it worked for him, because she eventually fully let him in!
I still struggle massively with 'how the hell could she do this for 13 months' until I uncovered it, but I can never undo it..
We talked a lot with the councillor about what we both want.. She wants the emotional connection, and I want to feel properly loved physically..
She gets this is why I was holding back and agreed to change, and in return, I said I'd work on the emotional side and try to rebuild that.
All was going well for a month of so, but for me it just seems to be drifting back to how it was before.. Yes, we have sex, but I don't feel the engagement from her.. When we do have sex, it's usually at the weekend and involves drinks. For me to his seems so wrong, because she was always completely sober with him ( during the day when kids at school, and me at work)
She did things with him that she doesn't do with me, and I get caught up in this whirlwind of emotions.. I'm not looking for anything out of this world, it to be at least valued that same as he was.. Maybe I'm wrong in all this, but he was worth the effort sexually to keep him engaged... I'm told now she loves me more than she ever has, but sex without alcohol is extremely limited, and the things she did with him don't happen with me ( apart from a few occasions very early on after we discussed it..
I may seem to some that I'm being selfish here, but I'm trying to repair something with a partner that thought less than nothing of me during her time with him..
We have discussed splitting up several times, and I'm much stronger on this now.. I don't want to rip the lid off and fully expose her if this happened, but I've made it very clear that her parents are told ( I respect them a lot, and don't want them thinking it was me that did something). I honestly feel that she's scared shitless of them being so disappointed in her, and I do wonder is that part of the reason she wants to make it work..
She puts in massive efforts in every other aspect of the relationship, but on the physical side, I'm completely caught!
I can't get past that part..
I have visions of us being happy again and in love, but it just doesn't feel right at the moment.. It's like I'm not worth the effort he was to be made sexually satisfied..
Don't get me wrong, we have regular intimacy, but it just doesn't feel right knowing what I now know, and what I'm working through.. It's like I feel I'm owed more from her, and maybe that's not fair.. She has said to me it's not right to want the things that he got just because it makes things even.. She said that's not right...
Where I'm stuck, is how is it that I'm told I'm the one she wants to spend the rest of her life with, I'm loved more than ever, but I'm not worth the sexual effort..
It's sad that it boils down to this, and I'm not and never was a selfish person.. I always put her feelings before my own on a whole, but I'm stuck here on this point.. It's just all different now...I'm stronger, I no longer blame myself, and I know I'm not a bad person.
I want to love her again, but the feeling of love that I once had has gone now, I don't look at her the same way anymore.. I want to, but it's not there at the moment anyway.. I'm 50 now, I have so much love to offer someone deserving, but I'm just not feeling it..
I'm questioning in my own mind should I discuss all this again with her, but I really don't feel I need to..
She has picked up over the past month or so that I'm more distant, and all above explains why..
We have 3 beautiful kids under 14 years old, and I don't want to tear there world apart..
From the outside, we are still a loving commited couple, and no one would ever guess in there wildest dreams what we're going through..
I still get so many playbacks in my mind of how she was with him emotionally and physically, but they don't consume me and hurt me the same anymore thankfully..
They do unfortunately make me guarded, and make me hold back..
My classic way of acting when I'm low is disconnecting now.. I never mention the affair etc, but I just go quiet. She knows that when this happens, it's because I'm flooding etc, and the norm now if for her also to go quiet..
She has said she builds her hopes up that everything will be well between us, but she also has a guard, because when I go low she knows it's maybe not going to work, and then it hurts her when she builds up her hopes for me to then topple them on her..
I do get this, and I said we both have to drop the guards for it to work.. I've done this the best I can, but am I so wrong to want to feel loved intimately? Like he was made feel to keep him interested..

The councilor was very neutral and looked at both sides. Agreed that the affair was wrong, but a lot about the disconnect pre affair that lead to it..

The state of a marriage has absolutely nothing to do with a person's choice to have an affair. Let that sink in.

People have affairs because they are unwilling or unable to cope with their own issues. It has nothing at all to do with their spouse, the marriage, or Mars transiting Aquarius.

Whatever issues your WW has that lead her down Infidelity Lane are the very same issues, for her part, that caused this disconnect in your marriage. They are the same issues that have been tripping her up for most of her life, issues that were there, within her, long before you ever met her. Nothing you ever did or didn't do, nothing you ever said or didn't say, would have made any difference at all. The affair is 100% on her and her alone.

What is your WW doing to own and fix her shit? Can she help you to understand why she chose to betray herself by having an affair? Can she explain, as well as she can, whatever issues she struggles with that made an affair an acceptable solution to her problems?

Intimacy begins with being an authentic person. All of these other issues you're experiencing with emotional and physical intimacy can be ironed out if and when she's able to live authentically.

Feelingvunerable

Read Unhinged post at least 4 times. His words are short and direct - your spouse is still broken and playing the 'game' to keep you around.

Lookup "women's infidelity" and "Michell Langely" - you will see what your spouse really is.

Going forward, if you stay, know that you have a memory for life that you must reconcile living with FOR YOURSELF.

I put doing that like learning to live with a prosthetic leg. Ya, you can do it, but life will never be the same in so many subtle ways.

I read here and very often wish for the betrayer/betrayed to find their way back together. But BOTH must put in genuine and LONG TERM effort to make that happen.

Think you can do that? Well, think your SPOUSE can do that?

I really think this is yet again another example of a normal therapist getting it wrong. Based on what you said, your wife is still getting the message that her affair was caused by something defective in the marriage.

I don't think this is giving you a real chance to heal the marriage (if it can be). That conclusion by therapist essentially lifts some of her load....

Sure it was wrong....BUT ....the marriage had this problem or that problem.....so she really is not all that responsible to take 100% ownership. Therefore, the amends she has to make don't have to be that drastic...

I am just frustrated hearing all that. Please get with a real betrayal trauma specialist. Check out "Identity Life Coach". Or Jake Porter.

Next, this issue with th sex acts. I have to tell you, I absolutely can understand what you are saying. It would be completely unacceptable to have my wife do things with another she won't do with me. You wife should do MORE with you....and with more vigor and loving passion.

I think a specialist will be able to really focus in on the root injuries that this is inflicting on you. Such that she may be able to understand.

I am so sorry and feel so hurt for you. Hang in their, God give you wisdom.

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 4:23 AM, Sunday, April 26th]

I may seem to some that I'm being selfish here

No it doesn’t.

You were betrayed in the worst way she could betray you. For at least 13 months, she actively and deliberately deceived you. Quite understandably, you cannot trust her. So you do the only thing you can do - trust but verify.

The problem you’re having is that her actions don’t match her words. Her words are that she loves you more than ever and wants to spend her life with you. Her actions are that she needs to be drunk to have sex with you and that she’s unwilling to do what you need to feel confident that her words are true.

You don’t need to get even and you’re not being selfish. You need to be convinced and she isn’t convincing you. It’s right to feel that way. She should be crawling over broken glass to win you over.

As an aside, I don’t like the phrasing of being "emotionally disconnected." It implies mutuality. You didn’t feel that way! She met someone she fancied and went with it. That’s not an "us" problem that’s a "her" problem.

I know you are trying to "work through this" but there are times when that doesn't actually save the marriage.

When I read what you wrote, it seems to me she's trying to keep you by doing the "bare minimum " because she doesn't feel it in her heart and also does not have the desire for you physically that she had for him.

Quite honestly I feel you have better chances finding what you are looking for, either down the road with her or by finding someone else from the vast world of potential partners out there if you actually take steps to end the marriage.

That would mean finally telling her it's not working and you want a divorce. Talk to lawyers first if you haven't already so you are prepared when you discuss it with her.

If it were me I'd be completely honest with why. "I need to move on. You will never be able to make me feel desired the way I know you desired him. I cant live the rest of my years with someone who feels more that way about someone else than they do me. I'm sorry but your affair made it clear that I don't do that for you and seems like I never will. "

Then stop discussing it and start moving forward with ending the marriage her choice to cheat already destroyed.

Maybe down the road she will come to feel that desire after you both have moved on. But my hope is you will have found it with someone else who deserves you for who you are.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:07 PM, Sunday, April 26th]

I get the feeling you're pushing your feelings down to tip-toe around hers. Like maybe you think things are so fragile right now that if you say or express the wrong thing it might ruin your chances of reconciliation.

I dropped that attitude about a month or month and a half after d day. The way I look at it is if things are that fragile or she's so easily deterred by my pain and grief then were just not going to make it.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't an angel and our relationship had issues before her affair. I've even apologized, but those issues are completely separate from the affair itself. I did make some changes as well, but I did it because it was the right thing to do and I do love her, but in no way, shape or form do I let any of that give her a pass for what she did. When I'm having a hard day she doesn't even attempt to bring up pre-affair issues.

I don't hold back when I'm having a rough day. I don't shut down, and neither does she. If something is bothering me I let it out and we talk about it. If she can't sit with me and let me have my moment(s) without deflecting or bringing up other issues in our marriage then I think there's no way we're going to make it. I've always been a "wear my emotions on my sleeve" kind of person so there's no way I can be my authentic self while stuffing my feelings and emotions. I don't always just blurt things out tho, and if she knows something is bothering me she'll flat out ask "What are you thinking about? What's bothering you right now? Please, just tell me." Then she braces herself, stops, and listens.

Did I need to make some changes? Yes. Did I? Yes, but she had to as well. Probably more than I did. I'm not the one who cheated afterall... We're in a much better place now all the way around. Sexually as well. It's daily, nothing is off the table for us, and she's sometimes even more enthusiastic than I am in the bedroom. I think part of that is the fact that we're both more authentic with each other than we ever have been. I don't hold back, and neither does she. We talk about everything now. There's a closeness and intimacy between us now that was lacking in our previous marriage and I don't think we'd have that if I stuffed my feelings, or she hers. She knows everything I think and feel, and that goes for me with her as well now. That creates a more close and intimate relationship that I think translates physically.

She accepts that her affair was 100% on her. No matter what was going on in our marriage she had a multitude of alternative actions she could have taken to resolve whatever issues she had. I was always available, and she sees that now. It's not always rainbows and sunshine when I'm struggling and we talk about it, but talk we do and so far, for the last year now, we've managed to work it out by the time we go to bed. We don't go to bed with angry or unresolved feelings anymore. Sometimes that means we get to bed a little too late, but it's worth it when there's a resolution.

Anyway, the way I see it is, I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells or be overly mindful of her reaction if I'm having a bad moment or day. It's the other way around. She needs to be mindful of how I'm feeling and dealing with this. She created this situation and it's up to her to put the bulk of the effort into fixing it. I'm not saying what she thinks or feels doesn't matter or that I shouldn't be mindful of her as well, but when it comes to the affair she's the one who has something to prove. She's the one who should be mindful and careful if she wants it to work. I'm offering her an undeserved gift in reconciliation. It's up to her how she's going to receive it.

[This message edited by Pogre at 4:21 PM, Sunday, April 26th]

IMO, selfishness is one of the cornerstone's of R. I think both partners need to know what they want and ask for it.

You've both got to give each other opportunities to step up or not. I just don't see how R can work unless you each want to give what the other wants to receive and receive what the other wants to give. And that works best if you both communicate clearly what you want and what you will and won't give.

You can't find out if you'll love each other without risking finding out that won't happen. One of you will have to take that risk first, and I recommend that be you - you sooner you take the risk, the sooner you'll find out if you can build the M that you want.

That means the sooner you take the risks (plural intended), the sooner you'll find out if D is your best path, and if D IS your best path, the sooner you fid out, the sooner your kids will heal.

Mind movies are par for the course. My guess is that the more selfish you get -WRT things that really matter to you - the less they'll occur.

I also suggest IC for you and your W. I agree with Unhinged and Hippo that the work you did in MC was premature. IMO, you need to figure out how to advocate for yourself, and your W needs to figure out how to treat you better than she treated om. It's not that she needs to do with you what she did with om, but she does need to show her love, and she's not getting through to you at this point.

Your wife doesn't have to do things with you that she has done with him, but it is reasonable to expect that it will make you doubt her affection for you. Few people enter or stay in romantic relationships to feel or be treated or seen as inferior. I don't think you can move forward with her until she can be fully honest were her mind and heart are. In the mean time consider to stop drinking with her or engage in drunk or limited sex if it doesn't make you happy. It will put the problem in the spotlight and make dodging it a lot less convenient.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 11:33 AM, Monday, April 27th]

Although I’m not comparing the terrible crime of rape to infidelity, the way even professionals view both had a lot in common.
I caught the end-period of when police questioned a rape victim they would ask things like did you show cleavage, short skirt, lead him on and so on. The period where the victim was made to believe that what they did was the cause for why they were forcibly raped. Where a rape-victim heard from police and from society that MAYBE they were at fault for walking through that park at night, for having kissed the man, for having left their drink unguarded…
At best they could expect a "well… sure… he shouldn’t have forced himself on you. But you could have expected that accepting a ride home in his car after a second date after you ordered lobster, the expensive wine and desert. That’s at least a hand-job, or a BJ. You should have known better…"

Sort of like your therapist is suggesting that not being attentive, stagnation in the relationship or whatever is the cause for the infidelity.

I think its of immense importance where you both admit that NOTHING you did or NOTHING in your relationship made her decide to have an affair. It can’t be blamed on your marriage.
Just like a rape-victim shouldn’t have walked through the dark park in the deep of night then you shouldn’t ignore issues in your relationship that you know of. If she had complained about your work schedule, or spending too much time gaming or whatever then you should/could have made changes. But for her to respond to marital issues by having an affair… No… NEVER EVER accept any blame for that. Nor for creating the situation where that decision make sense…

I will get to my point quickly.

I have never seen a successful R
(By success I mean the BS feels happy they stayed)
Unless two things happen in situations like yours.

1. The WS figuratively crawls on broken glass to repair the damage they caused.

2. In a situation where there were sexual things being done with the OM that were either rare or non-existent in the marriage, the WS puts forth 10X to their BS the effort they gave the OM.

You are not doing yourself any favors at all walking on eggshells. Decide your line in the sand, communicate that line and either she steps up permanently or you should get out.

If you have fears about finding someone else at your age? Forget them. At 50, with a decent career, no alcoholism or drug use, you won’t have time to catch all the panties being thrown at you by similar age women who divorced over everything you are not.

Thats the end of my 2x4. :)

The councilor was very neutral and looked at both sides. Agreed that the affair was wrong, but a lot about the disconnect pre affair that lead to it..

Oh, this is so frustrating and infuriating. The damage caused by this ideology, this lazy, shallow approach can be profound.

Many WSs will grab on to this point of view like a throwable life ring and not let go ruining any chance for real comprehensive and definitive work. It’s quick, it’s cheap, it’s easy, it’s vindicating, convenient, and palatable for the WS and her social circle, but…

you’re the one who’s going to pay the ultimate price and, you’ll never get over that bit of irony and that persistent lifelong feeling of disquietude.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:31 PM, Monday, April 27th]

Honey, I'm gonna be honest here. GET A DIVORCE. This recon bullshit does not work for most people. It just doesn't. You keep at it and at it and then you blame yourself that you're not forgiving enough, or kind enough, or big enough, or good enough...when what it comes down to is: YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THIS PERSON IS ANYMORE AND WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF. The trust is gone. For most people, it does NOT come back. Not unless...you just don't give a shit anymore. If you don't give a shit, then it doesn't matter. But if you want a marriage built on love and trust....you won't get that back. It doesn't come back. When you get thrown out of Eden, the gates are closed. How can you believe this woman who not only screwed another man, but lied to you for years about it and you had to find out from HIM? I know you're worried about money and the kids, and I understand if you want to stay married for THAT, that's fine and that's honest. But stop this bullshit of thinking you can reconcile with someone YOU DON'T KNOW. This is like meeting someone one line and you go out for some dates, and it's good..but you don't know this person. And don't take ANY BLAME FOR THIS AT ALL, AT ALL, AT ALL. Because the usual things are lying, love bombing, anger, blaming, etc. That's the usual route.

Stay if it's practical for you for the time being, but stop the bullshit about recon, because you may be fond of someone like this, you can be. She can have good qualities. But the relationship you had is gone. Most people cannot rebuild this, they go on to live GRAY LIVES. The color is gone. I would get a divorce and if you two reconnect later and she seems to be a differnt person, because there is SOMETHING RADICALLY AND BASICALLY WRONG WITH SOMEONE WHO SCREWS SOME OTHER GUY AND LIES TO YOU FOR YEARS ABOUT IT.

Is this relationship acceptable to you? That is the question.