SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We did have that discussion Torso. I have explained it. Coco was just supporting me, she didn’t make any statements about what you could talk about. Can we please move on now?

Has your CW cheated or not?

I don’t know if he will come back and answer or not, but no she hasn’t. I believe what happened at the time is the fellow writer was being flirty in a follow up email after his wife was attending a seminar and he felt his wife was being naive so he asked her to cut contact and she did.

Personally, I can understand because those rewriting retreats are intense and she is being honored. I can see how she might want to go and fully soak it in. I am not stating she is not cheating but I could also see how this being a unilateral decision she is making without any discussion would feel triggering for him.

I could think of many other scenarios as to why she doesn’t want to have a big discussion on it. And while I agree it’s insensitive, he says their marriage has been great so I don’t think she is likely routinely insensitive or overly selfish because most people married to someone like that wouldn’t describe it that way.

He has not asked her if she is cheating, he has only asked her why he can’t go. I could think of scenarios in which that isn’t connecting for her because from her standpoint she has been faithful. She never agreed with him that she was on a slippery slope with the other writer. We know that’s what people who are having an emotional affair would say but it’s also something someone who wasn’t leaning in that direction would say. Hard to really know.

Edited to add: here is where he mentioned it earlier in the thread, but the other details I wrote about her being naive I simply remember from

Past discussions:

A few years ago (or so) she was emailing with a guy who writes. He gives seminars and she went to one. A few days later he sends a personal email and compliments her- something like she "brightened up the seminar". She replies and gushes over his writing and then he calls her his "little verb" (wife is 5’0, 100 lbs and very fit). That did it for me. I put an end to the emails. She got mad and felt there was nothing to it, but I wasn’t going to let it go any farther.

I have sort of wondered if he is going to be there and she wants to avoid anything awkward. I wondered if that was what BP guy was hinting at -that someone is going to be here he wouldn’t be happy about.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:51 PM, Thursday, February 12th]

Thanks, HO.

I agree that the unilateral decision is not ok. Since the situation is upsetting, for whatever reason, it should be discussed.

I also agree that those emails were inappropriate. I would recognize that immediately and shut it down. It is concerning that she didn't and instead got angry when BP did. It's also concerning if she's worried about awkwardness from that other writer being there. Why care if it's awkward? If that guy was trying to get something going with her, he should feel awkward. What he did was not OK and he should feel uncomfortable about it.

Torso, I didn't say anything about what anyone could or could not say. Maybe because I know HO, or maybe because I'm so far out from dday, I didn't get the same feeling about HOs post. I wanted to give a different pov based on my experience on this site for many years. Do with it what you will.

If my wife was being honored for something and didn't want me there that would be a red flag. Now, if she was being recognized as employee of the year, at work, during work hours and it was just for employees, that I could understand.

But since she has not provided any sort of explanation and she has a history of what I would consider an EA with another writer I would assume she doesn't want her husband there because she is planning something with another guy

Even if the EA writer is going to be there she should explain this to her husband and let him make the decision as to whether or not he goes and if she goes. This might appear controlling but once you have an affair the rules change

Imagine the fallout if he finds out down the road that the reason she didn't want him there is because the EA writer would be there and her explanation is "I didn't want to make it awkward for you honey". Whether or not this is true I would assume she is lying. You do not get to make that decision for me

[This message edited by WB1340 at 8:58 PM, Thursday, February 12th]

In an adult mature marriage with mutual respect, there would be a logical explanation.

In this case, absent a discussion, you are left to wonder what is really going on.

Once deception creeps in, all bets are off as to whether you get the truth or not.

It’s a shame it has to be this way. The OP certainly deserves better.

I didn’t think bpguy was wrong for shutting it down. The idea she was a bs who married another bs, you would think she understands his anxiety.

I could imagine (and I don’t say any of this is true other than BP guy is a good man part ) that when they got married she felt she understood his sensitivities, and had some of her own.

However she married a very very good man. One that she has come to trust, he has great values, no one hates cheating more, he is engaged with his marriage, and I bet he is a good provider and protector. And he hasn’t grown trust in the same way because she does things like not shut her teacher down, and sees nothing wrong with it. From her standpoint she thinks has been as faithful and loyal as him. Maybe she had hopes that he would have grown to trust her more.

I do understand why she doesn’t want him there IF it’s not for cheating or hiding the fact she is being around someone she is supposed to be no contact with. I have been to these many times. My husband isn’t a creative, and it’s like you are trying to focus but you know he has to be miserable. And so knowing that, it dampens things. And then I usually compensate by giving him more time but then I feel like I missed part of what I wanted to do here. Being honored means that this is center stage time for networking. I could see how for some people that part would be very draining, and I don’t want to come back to the room and then not be able to decompress because I would feel guilty after leaving him alone all day and then not being engaging with him.

However, why not say that? So in other words, my two scenarios of these more innocent issues does not play. Unless she just doesn’t want to be talked out of her decisions.

My bet is on the NC guy is going to be there. I am not saying she is hiding it because she wants to cheat with him, though that could be a reason. It’s because she wants to go and not have BPguy see him and get upset. Which no matter which it is is a form of betrayal.

My biggest advice is to work this out before she goes because if not that’s going to be the longest most miserable weeks. If it were me, I would tell her that, and that without her explaining all this in a way I could understand, that she is setting me up for a traumatizing week because it feels like she is hiding something. Then I would listen very closely to what she has to say about that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:37 PM, Thursday, February 12th]

I would not be supportive of my fWH going away for a week without me if he told me he didn’t want me there.

That would trigger a response in my brain screaming "WHY NOT!?!?!?!"

And if he resisted my attending with him, I would likely shut down and then do a 180. He would get no further input from me.

While he was gone, I would refuse calls and communications. When he came back I would be gone.

Because if he doesn’t want me with him, then I won’t be with him.

I don't want to take the post further off topic and make it to be unhelpful to the original poster.

hikingout,

I certainly don't have a problem with you personally. I do often find your posts interesting and thought provoking. I left the conversation for a while because I only have the mental energy to deal with each topic in a limited fashion and need to think on my own about all of it.

I was curious about your response and whether you thought thatbpguy was genuinely reacting in an inappropriate manner to the situation. It seems you do, no? If we could just stick to what you think about his situation and the post, I think that would be best.

end.

I haven't fully gone through all the responses and processed everything. My initial reaction is that bpguy did say his wife had an EA. That's what HE thought of it, not flirty texts. When he talked to her about that, she didn't appreciate how seriously he felt about it according to his post.

Maybe bpguy is reacting too strongly about how his wife is behaving now. I certainly don't know his full history. Maybe I have been through a similar situation with my infidelity and feel a strong response is best. Others were expressing a similar thought. I would likely react strongly to the situation, particularly if I found that my husband was lying to me about what's going on with the trip. If he can't be honest now, for whatever reason, I'm going to react strongly. But this is bpguy's wife and not my husband. I can only speak for me. Maybe that is unhealthy. I really need to think about it more and come back later.

Thanks kitchendepth. I was only trying to understand your perspective. And now I do.that makes me feel tons better because I kept feeling like I was offending repeatedly you somehow. Now that I know where you are coming from, that is very helpful to me. Written sentiment a can be easily misconstrued - I will read you from now on as curious. My sincere apologies. I probably have a bit of a complex that contributed to all of it.

As for this:

My initial reaction is that bpguy did say his wife had an EA. That's what HE thought of it, not flirty texts.

I think that’s just a difference in our understanding because he didn’t elaborate. This isn’t the first time I have heard this story and have dissected this with him in the past. He doesn’t feel she had an EA, he thinks he stopped it before it was an EA. However, due to his past experiences it bothered him that she was being naive about the guys intentions. I don’t think she flirted back, but was enthusiastic about his work which was feeding his ego and fueling his pursuit of her.

If BP thought her intention was to have an affair I think that would have been it for him. I think at worst he thought she should have shut him down, and at best felt she was being naive.

She took a class from the guy. He sent her an email after. She was talking about his work and he was spewing more personal compliments: you lit up the class, calling her a little verb. She wasn’t reciprocating in the same way but she should have asked him to keep his tone more professional. He likely emailed her because he was interested in her.

BP intersected it before it could become an affair because this is how affairs start, and I do agree with that. But it doesn’t mean she had formed an intention or ever would have, he just wasn’t taking chances and who could blame him?

I also think his flowery way of communicating could have been interpreted by her as his flair for the dramatic. I know people like that and if they sent an email it would sound over the top but it’s just their common vernacular. So her perspective could have been more about the context of how he interacted with people. But I am not saying that if I read someone talking to my husband that way I wouldn’t shut it down.

I think if he came back he would tell us he doesn’t consider her to have been a ws, or having cheated, but he did feel he interjected before it had become an EA. He said something to me once about that’s how men think, and the fact she wasn’t seeing it scared him.

I am not sure that has to be an indication on whether she is cheating now but I think as protective as he is - he says he keeps an eye on her- it’s hard for me to believe if she is cheating she is doing it so blatantly. If she is she knows for 100 percent the outcome and it would be an exit affair.

Right now I think he has only asked her about coming and has tried to get her rationale. The fact she sidesteps it makes him feel she is hiding something, and she very well may be doing that. He isn’t the type that would say an accusation without more information. He may need to be more confrontational than that. Or I could be wrong and hopefully he will show up and say.

if I found that my husband was lying to me about what's going on with the trip. If he can't be honest now, for whatever reason, I'm going to react strongly. But this is bpguy's wife and not my husband. I can only speak for me. Maybe that is unhealthy. I really need to think about it more and come back later.

I agree and same. My remarks were maybe unclear on that because some of my response was to counter some of the responses he was getting that made it sound like she is a ws who is cheating a second time and I was trying to temper that as a way of calming him (though not to dismiss it or cease investigating).

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:07 PM, Friday, February 13th]

I had a somewhat similar situation with my H about a year ago. I learned that he was regularly partnered with a woman at his gym. It was for a legitimate reason and not his choosing. They both like to compete. My H is very good at motivating and encouraging people to push themselves during workouts. This woman needed the push so their coach partnered her with my H.

I didn't know anything about it until the woman contacted me to ask what my H would want for his birthday. She was planning a big thing for him at the gym. I told my H it was too much and I needed him to stop partnering with her. He did as I asked.

No one at the gym understood why. Her H appealed to my H to keep working with his W. My guess is that they figured I was jealous and him asking would indicate that there was no funny business. Altho, neither her H or I would really know. Neither of us was a member at the gym.

That wasn't the issue for me. As far as I know, nothing inappropriate was going on. The people at the gym regularly do things for members on their birtdays and such. There were other people involved in the planning for my H. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if he was occasionally partnered with her or any other woman. It was the regularity of it and the dependence this woman had on my H that was my concern.

My H is clueless. It didn't register to him that it was a slippery slope. He said to me that he thought we were in a good enough place that it wouldn't matter. I told him we would never be that good again.

I still go on their group hikes sometimes. I still pop into the gym occasionally for a competition or special occasion. I don't care what anyone there thinks. They aren't my people. If anyone were to ask, I would be honest.

Some people are just clueless. My H is a fWH. He should've known better. BPguy's CW should know better, being a BP herself. Sometimes, they just don't.

All that being said, if my H ever told me he didn't want me coming to his gym anymore, or communicating with any of the members, we would have a serious problem. He never has. Quite the opposite. He's always trying to get me to go and do things with them. It's annoying. I don't play well with others.

I did pop in last weekend while he was judging a comp. He didn't know I was coming. I didn't know I was going until I was trying to figure out hwne it would be over and discovered they had vendors. I went for the shopping. When my H saw me, he got a huge grin on his face.

So ok, there is an aspect of whether thatbpguy's wife was behaving inappropriately or naive about her interaction with the last writer. I tend to think any woman of an age has been inappropriately approached in a professional setting has learned that lesson and knows how to handle it at the start to stop it. That's mainly because I have been numerous times. I also worked in a male-dominated profession. But hey, maybe bpguy's wife is clueless. Ok.

She could and should have learned appropriate boundaries and how to shut things down, especially after being a BS. That is my opinion. It benefits her too if she cares about her marriage and her career. I can give you many examples of how my husband has been aware and shut thing down now on his own, but he would never have done it in the past. It benefitted him in his career and private life not do that, and he liked it. This type of attention doesn't affect him the same at all. He's learned now how it affects us both and how to shut it down. If he couldn't get that message, I don't want to be with him.

Was bpguy's wife lying about the conference and why he can't be there? That's an issue if true. I don't feel she simply gets to claim that she was unaware or didn't want bpguy to be upset because he's too sensitive as the issue. He's not driving her to lie. I wouldn't accept that.

There's a double-edged sword/ catch-22 here for the BS.

Scenario 1: A BS doesn't question or confront enough because they think the default is to trust your spouse. They are accused of not caring or wanting to know. I have witnessed here WS who are thinking of confessing and feel like their BS is comfortable and doesn't want to know because they haven't asked a direct confrontational question. I can give examples. Well, maybe if they're like me, they trust and don't think about it or excuse the behavior because they think that's how relationships should work. The BS should trust, and if the other party has something to say then they should. That seems healthy to me. It doesn't seem like it should be the responsibility of the BS.

Scenario2: The BS asks, but not exactly the correct question and obfuscation from the WS happens. The BS finds out about that and asks again, and they are lied to and put into detective mode. The BS is only told what they can prove. Rinse. Repeat. That's very harmful to a psyche. I think this is the majority of infidelity. If you've not been through it, I don't think you can understand.

Scenario3: The BS is too inquisitive and suspicious, and they come off as harping and distancing the WS. If the WS isn't a WS, and it's just their suspicion. hikingout, I think you mentioned this.

It's a quandary. How do you do this right as a BS? Maybe this really is an incompatibility issue. I give a high degree of trust and also responsibility to being open, just like I was given as a child. I expect to be informed. It's how I was raised. I have friends in marriages who are somewhat ok without that in various parts of their lives. I've never heard of that with infidelity. I can't deal with that. Maybe it's ok for others. But really, what is the responsibility of the other spouse to be open and tell what they are feeling in this situation? It seems like it's blaming the BS for not handling it correctly.

All that being said, if my H ever told me he didn't want me coming to his gym anymore, or communicating with any of the members, we would have a serious problem

100% agree.

I have in occasion popped up at places my H has been and he has done the same with me. No issues - because there is nothing being hidden.

If the Wife doesn’t have a solid reason why her spouse cannot attend something (or vice versa) then 🚩🚩are raised.

I guess we haven't heard any final resolution on this and March is still a couple of weeks away. I could not urge BP strongly enough to insist on going to this or just showing up. He needs to know WHY she doesn't want him there especially with her history. There are more red flags here than in Beijing.

I don't think he's thought this through clearly. I know he wants to trust her but....human nature and frailty. Not just hers, but his. If this happened to me, and my husband said I'm going to this meeting and we usually go on these trips together but he told me I can't go and this is after these emails, etc, and he won't tell me why I can't go. If I decided.....well, I'll trust him and just stay home. When he got back.....I would always wonder what the hell actually happened there. And that thought is not going to go away. It's not. It's gonna get bigger and bigger until it overtakes the marriage - it will snowball. Because that's what people are like and none of us are any different unless we just don't give a shit about our spouse. If I didn't care, I'd be yeah, go ahead, do whatever, and when he came back, I wouldn't bother to ask. Because....you can never know what the truth is, right?

So BP, I think you're handling this wrong, you better know why she doesn't want you to go, and you should either go, show up, or have a PI there. Because if you don't, when she comes back, no matter what she says, you will always be wondering and this will be a poison that will grow, and that is human nature and that is what will happen, no matter how much you say it won't. Be realistic. TRUST BUT VERIFY.

So ok, there is an aspect of whether thatbpguy's wife was behaving inappropriately or naive about her interaction with the last writer. I tend to think any woman of an age has been inappropriately approached in a professional setting has learned that lesson and knows how to handle it at the start to stop it. That's mainly because I have been numerous times. I also worked in a male-dominated profession. But hey, maybe bpguy's wife is clueless. Ok.

I do agree women have lots of experience with this. Not everyone handles it the same way, nor do we know enough about the situation. If you have been part of a creative community, acting, writing, etc. some of the men are flamboyant and flowery with their words with everyone. It’s their common vernacular, she may have interpreted this as his personality and not a personal interest. It’s really hard to tell. The fact she has no history of cheating, and has had the experience of being cheated on, I am simply giving her the benefit of the doubt—however, I do no disagree with BP on if it made him uncomfortable he spoke up and she went NC. Seems straightforward to me.

She could and should have learned appropriate boundaries and how to shut things down, especially after being a BS. That is my opinion. It benefits her too if she cares about her marriage and her career. I can give you many examples of how my husband has been aware and shut thing down now on his own, but he would never have done it in the past. It benefitted him in his career and private life not do that, and he liked it. This type of attention doesn't affect him the same at all. He's learned now how it affects us both and how to shut it down. If he couldn't get that message, I don't want to be with him.

I fully agree, but I do think when the spouse has cheated on you there is often more diligence and discussion around this. I can see how people who have not cheated get confident (or maybe overconfident) that it means nothing. Those of us who have infidelity in our relationship must look at it differently and often have a higher standard than before infidelity. But to this point I do not feel this relationship has been affected by infidelity outside of past relationship experiences.

Was bpguy's wife lying about the conference and why he can't be there? That's an issue if true. I don't feel she simply gets to claim that she was unaware or didn't want bpguy to be upset because he's too sensitive as the issue. He's not driving her to lie. I wouldn't accept that

I would not either, my point is that there could be lots of things happening here that may be a problem but it may not be an affair. I was simply offering scenarios I could think of in which it’s not an affair. We jump to a lot of conclusions around here and in the past the way BP has described her, I just don’t jump to an affair. If you read the rest of what I said you will find that I said if she i hiding something it is betrayal. We have a zero lying policy in our marriage post infidelity. It would be major enough for us if I went to a conference and didn’t want him to come because I was hiding something. I would say a separation would be likely but probably divorce would be imminent.

But it truly could just be she wants to do her hobby on her own. We can’t really assume anything other than we know he is either sensing something or is simply triggered by feeling shut out. I trust BP will figure this out, he will not go back to living with infidelity.

Scenario 1: A BS doesn't question or confront enough because they think the default is to trust your spouse. They are accused of not caring or wanting to know. I have witnessed here WS who are thinking of confessing and feel like their BS is comfortable and doesn't want to know because they haven't asked a direct confrontational question. I can give examples. Well, maybe if they're like me, they trust and don't think about it or excuse the behavior because they think that's how relationships should work. The BS should trust, and if the other party has something to say then they should. That seems healthy to me. It doesn't seem like it should be the responsibility of the BS.

I understand why BP probably hasn’t been direct with her. Still, I think given his level of discomfort he needs to make her aware this is triggering to him. If he just lets her go without discussing it with her, he is going to be the one paying for it that week. She may be brushing him off because they are not on the same page. I think she trusts Bo guy explicitly and may project that in the reverse. After all the have now been married at least a decade and she may feel more distance from the past than he does and feel their marriage is strong and this isn’t a big deal. He needs to communicate what’s bothering him.

It's a quandary. How do you do this right as a BS? Maybe this really is an incompatibility issue. I give a high degree of trust and also responsibility to being open, just like I was given as a child. I expect to be informed. It's how I was raised. I have friends in marriages who are somewhat ok without that in various parts of their lives. I've never heard of that with infidelity. I can't deal with that. Maybe it's ok for others. But really, what is the responsibility of the other spouse to be open and tell what they are feeling in this situation? It seems like it's blaming the BS for not handling it correctly.

I do believe both people should be open. I do not blame BP for anything. I simply think he could be triggering to the unilateral decision with not a sufficient explanation and should be open about that even though she has not given him a lot of reasons not to trust her. I do think that it would be normal he feels like she was being eased into an EA, and was alarmed she didn’t see the instructors intentions. But she didn’t insist it was fine and keep contact, she chose to eliminate any perceived threat. I don’t think it’s a matter of being right or wrong, but open communication is better. And that is the responsibility of both people.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:24 PM, Wednesday, February 18th]

My daughter is a professional musician who fronts a well-known band.

She once did something that surprised me, but also stood out as a very strong way to self-advocate.

She wanted me to accompany her to the green room so I could visit with the rest of the band members (I have a very good friendship with all of them).

The security at the door told me I couldn’t go in. Only musicians allowed.

My daughter looked right at that huge man, and from her 99 pound, 5 ft 4 inch body, she stared up at him.

"My mother is allowed to go ANYWHERE I GO," she said firmly. He tried to tell her no again.

She looked at him and told him again. "She goes where I go. Every time. Any time."

He backed down.

My instinct was to obey without question. Her instinct was to stand her ground and state her intentions.

I learned something that day.

5Decades - BRAVA for your daughter!!!! I love feisty little people!!! And they often succeed. I have found what she did to be true - that if you stand up and roar, no matter your size and appearance, and you stand on your rights, much bigger people will often back down. I think it's a great lesson and thanks for sharing it!

I want to offer a different tangent on this issue.
I’m not denying that there might be red flags or issues, but simply offering another possibility. This one heavily based on my personal experiences.

My story is in my profile. I basically ended a long-term relationship on d-day. In many ways I did a perfect detachment and separation. About 2 years later I met my present wife, and we have been a couple since.
Somewhere in the 12-15 year range of our relationship we had issues. Of course, we had issues all the time, but at that point I guess they had accumulated into something more serious. Like pressure that builds up. I was more-or-less convinced she was cheating, or on the path towards cheating.
I shared my concerns on forums like this, and was told 100% that she was cheating. Yet I had my doubts...
I really did my homework... This is way back over 2 decades ago, but I did GPS tracking, financial analysis, VAR’s, followed her, confirmed her whereabouts... the works. Yet never found the smoking gun.

At the same time I realized that I carried some weight around that I associated with trauma from my law-enforcement days. Had the good sense to talk to a psychologist who quickly diagnosed PTSD. However, when ranked in seriousness then the trauma associated with law-enforcement paled to the trauma I carried from infidelity...
I was fortunate that it didn’t take me long to adapt the strategies he taught me to deal with PTSD. I no longer have to sit with my back to the wall at restaurants, no longer have a dread of seeing cauliflower (looks remarkably like brain material...), no longer a cold sweat if I see kids under six walking sidewalks... all events associated with events I dealt with as a cop.
But... I also learned that my wife was not the same woman as the one that cheated on me, and that I did not have to have the same boundaries in place or same expectations I had to her – based on what I experienced in my past relationship. I had no logical need to have a tingling negative feeling if I arrived home late. I had no reason to assume she was cheating, rather than assume she was faithful.

Yes – we had issues. Serious issues, and had we not dealt with them then I doubt we would have lasted. But SOME of them were due to my mentality and attitude based on me semi-expecting infidelity all the time.

We dealt with our issues. Amongst the things we did was I shared with her how my past experience required maybe some extra assurances from her. At the same time, I acknowledged that I needed to eventually believe her (it’s called trust...). We then worked on that issue, along with others.

We still have issues. I think any vibrant and ongoing relationship has issues. But we deal with them.

So the tangent I’m going on is that MAYBE you two have issues, and that’s why she might not want you around at that time and place.
That e-mail from lecturer? Good lecturers are also good salesmen. They reach out with thank-you posts. That’s how they might get their next lecture. For all you know he sent a dozen of those posts, and then responds to the 1-2 that reply.
But for us – broken souls from past infidelity – we see a sign of possible future infidelity. Same if they change hair-styles. Same if they are excited about something without us...

One thing I did when I had the talk with my wife about how I realized my past experience wa impacting me (and us) now. I made it clear that I couldn’t prevent her from cheating. If she felt some need to get something outside of the marriage then I couldn’t prevent it. I also made it clear that my past experience was a constant reminder that this was something I could not ignore or be blind to. I would appreciate her efforts to assure me, but also that IF something happened it would be inevitable that I knew of it eventually, and that I only had my past experience to base on how I would respond.

I guess the tangent I’m on here is to be aware that your past experiences might scream infidelity, while the reality might be some other issues, and that the best path might simply be very clear communications. Maybe this conference is an ideal basis to have that conversation.

As a spouse, you can ask multiple times and in multiple ways if there is anything like infidelity or even the thought of infidelity going on in the marriage. Many don't do that, but some do. The overwhelming majority of the time the other person will say no to all of it. My conclusion is that it simply doesn't get you any useful information to ask. This may be harder for WS here to understand. They are more likely to be those who confess, or when caught not give their spouse a run-around answer to all of it.

In conclusion, I can't fault thatbpguy for not asking the question in a direct manner. Yet he has asked and expressed concern in other ways from what I have read here. He has asked about going to the conference and why he's not welcome. He's been given an answer, which among other deflection is that he is simply not allowed to spend the night in her room. If that is a lie, I would want to know. It would be enough for me to not excuse the other behaviors of his wife that are discussed here. I stand by that. I'd want to find out more.

I can accept thatbpguy's wife is afraid of his response if there is something else going on, but not outright infidelity. In the past, I would have believed that is a lie. However, I do now accept that is a valid feeling on her behalf. My issue is that I think he has communicated his concerns enough for her to understand. I know I would have. It's now ok for me to call this an incompatibility issue rather than a lie. Yet, is he catching her in a lie? If yes, that's still probably the end for me.

But it truly could just be she wants to do her hobby on her own. We can’t really assume anything other than we know he is either sensing something or is simply triggered by feeling shut out.

I can understand thatbpguy's wife feeling that. As a fBS, I would accept my spouse telling me that and us having a discussion about it and either agree or not agree. I simply can not understand if she is lying about the situation to thatbpguy, and that he accepts her lie as an excuse to why she said what she did this. He will do what now? Go along and be ok with this? Have a talk with her? Didn't they do this years ago? What is healthy here?

Honestly, I don't have any problem with any WS. This just seems a little baffling to me as a fBS on what is a healthy way to deal with this situation. I know what I think, but I might be wrong. I'm also thinking of it in terms of my own fWH, so there's that too.

PBG,

My initial thoughts were that your WW? Is in a small and in some ways sealed off creative community.

So she may be bonded to someone in ways she never revealed or explained to you, possibly had a transient emotional or physical relationship in the past she kept secret from You.

Somewhat like a work husband, but much more infrequent.

So now she is stuck between her marriage and her creative life and at risk of losing both.

As a spouse, you can ask multiple times and in multiple ways if there is anything like infidelity or even the thought of infidelity going on in the marriage. Many don't do that, but some do. The overwhelming majority of the time the other person will say no to all of it. My conclusion is that it simply doesn't get you any useful information to ask. This may be harder for WS here to understand. They are more likely to be those who confess, or when caught not give their spouse a run-around answer to all of it.

Totally agree.

I think my mainline advice has been confront the issue he is having, not accuse her or ask her if she is cheating. . Meaning I would tell her I am uncomfortable with the level of information I have on why this its an issue for him to go. I would tell her give my personal history it’s feeling like she is hiding something and it’s making me uncomfortable. I would explain if we leave it like this she is setting me up for a traumatizing week and is damaging trust by not being forthcoming.

The whole thing is, don’t be complacent and send flowers hoping that will be a deterrent. Be straight with her on what the situation is.

She can lie, yes. But I think if my spouse knows they are traumatizing me further due to my history and they don’t care enough to talk it through, and the don’t care they are breaking trust, then you have the answer. It may not be the answer of whether they are cheating but you know they are specifically knowing they are creating damage and they do not care.

As it stands now it sounds like he has asked if he can go, she has said no, when he pressed her she said I just think it’s better that you don’t. If the issue is she simply doesn’t want him there she needs to spell it out and why.

In conclusion, I can't fault thatbpguy for not asking the question in a direct manner. Yet he has asked and expressed concern in other ways from what I have read here. He has asked about going to the conference and why he's not welcome. He's been given an answer, which among other deflection is that he is simply not allowed to spend the night in her room. If that is a lie, I would want to know. It would be enough for me to not excuse the other behaviors of his wife that are discussed here. I stand by that. I'd want to find out more.

I don’t think he has to say "are you cheating" I think he just needs to tell her how he is feeling about what is happening. As it stands she should have been forthcoming, but perhaps saying "I don’t want to be responsible for entertaining you, or have my energy divided" is just as jarring for her to say as him being more forthcoming. I don’t think he needs to confront her as if she is cheating but he has feelings here that she may not realize. They are his feelings so therefore it’s his responsibility to communicate them.

I can accept thatbpguy's wife is afraid of his response if there is something else going on, but not outright infidelity. In the past, I would have believed that is a lie. However, I do now accept that is a valid feeling on her behalf. My issue is that I think he has communicated his concerns enough for her to understand. I know I would have. It's now ok for me to call this an incompatibility issue rather than a lie. Yet, is he catching her in a lie? If yes, that's still probably the end for me.

I am not sure asking if you can go, and then asking it more pointedly explains how he is feeling. We operate in relationships a lot by projecting. Bpguy is very intentional and methodical and likely has 100 percent trust from her. She may feel if he wanted to do something like that and didn’t want her to go that she would be fine with it and she has been cheated on in the past.

I would say it pretty simply and calmly in a few sentences and sit back and watch and listen very carefully.

If she still doesn’t care I think that would be to me as of strong indication as lying that our relationship is in grave danger. It still doesn’t mean she is cheating but you can’t just take complete freedom in a marriage without consideration of your spouse. Unilateral decisions for the most part do not belong in Marriage. And for what it’s worth, I would feel exactly like BP in this situation.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:45 PM, Friday, February 20th]