SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As for your study guide. I get it, you are trying to build responses that you can use when you are in the moment and feel these behaviors happening.

That part is reasonable except there are some expectations you should think about adjusting.

One- trauma affects memory like nothing else does. It’s actually a big symptom of PTSD. And many of the other things here are as well. I am not saying he has PTSD but the "vomiting" that you are talking about is his need to let it all out. It’s actually a very big need in reconciliation. Instead of listening to respond -just listen. Give him a chance to have emotional safety. Responses like "I can see how painful that is for you" (if it’s genuine) or "let me think about that more.

You do not need to make point during that. Just listen. It’s okay if you don’t respond and answer all the questions. He will ask them again if he wants to know. He is trying to vent. I get you are trying to track them so you can squelch them but he will eventually be able to do that on his own.

Trauma is very predictable and it makes the brain operate differently in the aftermath.

Everything you describe is less about abusing you, and more about him not knowing where to put the pain.

I am guessing he doesn’t have friends to talk to about this and isn’t in therapy. You being his outlet makes it feel miserable to you, especially because I think you still have this underlying shame that make it unbearable and feel like abuse.

Your husband needs to heal his trauma, you can not do that for him. But you need to be prepared that’s going to be a longer process. If you can focus on making him feel safe, that’s going to go along way in providing the environment for him to heal.

You are describing a normal bs. I know that is emotionally difficult but this genuinely is what it looks like. It’s very universal.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:12 PM, Wednesday, May 20th]

Abuse and domestic abuse have a legal definition and legal consequences. If I were speaking to your husband and he told me you were accusing him of abuse and manipulation solely based on your list of items of conversation topics, I would tell him to take this seriously and get out of the situation. That may sound harsh, but you are accusing him of a serious crime. I don't see how these things meet the definition. Like 5bluedrops, I see you doing the same things in your posts.

Unhinged,

"Repetition Compulsion"
GotTheMorbs, do some research on this topic. You're not gonna like it.

Well geez, let me at least look it up first, lol… I did, and it makes sense to me. I recognize that my participation in this site is part of the compulsion.Though, I feel like I’m shifting from needing the "outcome" to be that other people acknowledge all the micro-dynamics in the conversation that I point out and to respond differently, to wanting my emotional reaction to the micro-dynamics to change (i.e, the trigger lessens in intensity with each repeated exposure.) I already know that they’re not going to acknowledge the micro-dynamics and respond differently. It does sooth the trigger every time I accurately predict their responses though: "I knew this would happen, and I can see it all clearly. My grasp on reality is sound. I am okay."

Here's something else you probably won't like. Resolving pre-A marital issues has to take a back seat to resolving affair issues. There's simply no way around this.

This is something I struggled with in the beginning, but I eventually came to accept.
However, when I talk about needing him to accept fault and make changes in this particular context, I’m not talking about bout pre-A marital issues. I’m talking about things like, our child not being fed properly or our pets not being adequately cared for when I’m away at work, and then if I try to make those things easier for him— leaving prepared meals for him, writing checklists, implementing systems to reduce time-cost and frequency of care tasks— he acts offended, as if I’m calling him incompetent. And then he doesn’t utilize the ways I’ve made it easier for him to take care of our pets or child— prepared meals uneaten in the fridge, checklists not even looked at, systems disregarded— and they’re not properly cared for. So I try to address it with him again…

Then he’ll engage in a manipulation tactic like telling me "Nothing I ever do is good enough for you" (Accusation of shifting goalposts. As if I didn’t leave very specific instructions that define exact standards for care so the goalposts can’t be shifted; it’s just that he chose not to follow or even read the instructions and failed to meet the standards for care, and he’s trying to flip it around to make it so that I look like the impossible-to-please, unreasonable one) Or, as I mentioned earlier, he’ll say something like, "How many time have you gone away? She hasn’t starved. You’re just making up things to be mad about." (Ignoring that the standard of care isn’t ‘not starving’ but being well-nourished, minimizing the ‘badness’ of what’s happening when I’m not home to care for her, making me seem like the unreasonable one, and gaslighting me by suggesting I’m making issues up, rather than there actually being something wrong here.)

He’s also directly lied to me about their care. Like, I only have 5 laying hens who either lay 1 or 0 eggs each day. How is he gonna tell me he collected the eggs every day except for on the day I came home, and I go out to the coop and collect 12 eggs— which is at minimum 3 days worth— from underneath a hen that’s gone broody, who I now have to break because the weather is 101* and she will literally die if she sits in the hot coop all day? But then I’m the bad guy if I go in and look at the eggs he did collect and start tallying up the numbers for the dates written on them and get upset because the objective data suggests that he gathered them all up at once and fabricated the dates. (No, the 5 hens did not lay 9 eggs on the 16th.) But what would happen if I said something to him about it and how I know, do you think? He would call me crazy for doing that, as if it’s not his fault I feel the need to count the eggs, or he would tell me I’m just "looking for things to be mad about." Like I’m just trying to make our kid gets enough to eat and make sure my chickens don’t fucking die, dude. Is that too much to ask for while I’m away working for our family? I’m already barely keeping it together at work because I’m bending over backwards to make shit as easy as possible for him while I’m not there prior to leaving and neglecting what I need to do to prepare myself; now apparently I have to drive 8 hours across the state to take our daughter to my mom’s house and spend more money than I’m making at work to pay a chicken sitter.

These are important issues I’m trying to address, with really severe consequences if we don’t address them, and he’s systematically removing my ability to communicate through them with him. So I’ve been trying to address the defensiveness and the manipulation tactics, which, as you can see, is going absolutely swimmingly /s. I haven’t tried to touch the pre-A marital issues in a hot minute.

I recognize that my participation in this site is part of the compulsion.

That is not why I recommended looking up Repetition Compulsion, although I understand, sort of, why you made the connection.

This has to do with your step-father and the trauma he inflicted upon you. Take a little time and dig deeper into the concept. I'm not a psychologist or counselor, so I certainly could be wrong here. A few of the things that you've written in this threat reminded me of things other members wrote about years ago. I simply thought it might help you regarding your husband and other relationships in your life.

As for your participation in this community I can only hope you'll take a few moments to reflect on its entirety. Despite all of the clashes and conflicts we've had, we're still here. You're still seeking our help, and some of us are still trying to help you.

...I feel like I’m shifting from needing the "outcome" to be that other people acknowledge all the micro-dynamics in the conversation that I point out and to respond differently, to wanting my emotional reaction to the micro-dynamics to change (i.e, the trigger lessens in intensity with each repeated exposure.) I already know...

So basically I'm hyper analytical about every minute interaction..

I'd imagine that you already know how uncommon this is and where this anxiety comes from. It's something I try to keep in mind while engaging with you (feel free to analyze that ).

As I mentioned before, I truly hope that one day you'll find a way to slay this demon and find the healing and peace you seek.

As for the kid's nutrition and the chickens... well, I don't have much advice to offer.

Then he’ll engage in a manipulation tactic like telling me "Nothing I ever do is good enough for you"

That may not be a manipulation tactic. In fact, I'd say he's trying, in his own way, to express his own feelings of insecurity, low self-esteem, whatever. His issues, of course. Sometimes just listening has its own benefits, you know?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 12:52 AM, Thursday, May 21st]

Hikingout,

We're not discussing the affair and his feelings about it at all. Last night was the first time in months. I have been practically begging him to talk to me about it every time I sense him triggering, and he just refuses. Like I said in my other post, it might be because I haven't been good about not engaging in those coping mechanisms of mine that trigger him, and maybe his subconscious logic is that if I'm still doing those things, then I must not care how he feels, so why share them? But I did bring this up to him, and he seem almost surprised to hear it, and just shrugged like, "Maybe." and didn't offer any comment on it. So maybe he doesn't even know why he's not sharing his feelings. Or he does and just won't tell me. (How am I supposed to fix it if he won't tell me?)

But like, you and so many of the others here are imagining that he's just doing normal BS things when we're having conversations about the A, and that's not what's happening here at all. I can absolutely handle those things and honestly welcomed them when they were happening, because I knew he was making progress towards healing. Up until last night, it's just been like he put a wall up, and we can't even work through normal everyday things with very urgent consequences without him gaslighting me, being defensive, engaging in the manipulation tactics, etc. It's way bigger than a "chicken scratch" in comparison to gunshots; it's more like a stabbing in comparison to a gunshot. And like, because I shot him first I'm trying to make allowances for the stabbing, and I want to forgive him for it, but I still need the stabbing to fucking stop, you know? It's really hard to empathize with and comfort the person you shot while they are actively stabbing you. Like, I can't change the bandages and apply antiseptic to his bullet hole while I'm actively bleeding out; I need the medical supplies myself. So my study guide responses are like body armor to protect me from further knife wounds, not a knife to stab him back with.

Like it's not about the laundry. It's about the fact that I'm trying to get us to a place where there's a livable compromise, where I do well enough to accomplish and maintain a reasonable, functional, sufficiently clean house, and he works on his OCD to get to a place where less-than-perfect-but-reasoanbly-clean is tolerable for him. And if he's painting me in his head to be lazy and sitting around all day, not tending to my half of the responsibilities because I supposedly don't care about his feelings, even though I'm at least intermittently busting my ass trying to make things better for him because I definitely do care and want to make him happy... What reason does he have to work on his half of the compromise? If he can convince himself that it's been a month since the last time I did laundry, that only serves to reinforce the story he's telling himself. So if I'm standing in the laundry room looking at the clean dress I wore to church literally a week ago, reality is obviously different than he remembers, but it serves him better if he just "remembers differently." If he just gaslights me and it works, well, not only can he shift the goal posts so that I have to meet ever higher standards for cleanliness while making me feel like shit, but he doesn't need to work on his OCD. In this way, he maintains control over me. That's abusive.

Even just today, we were standing in the kitchen, and he remarked how nice it was to have clean counter space and that he was proud of himself for doing it while I was gone. I was like, "Seriously? You don't remember me literally not going to sleep the night before my flight so I could work on the house, including clearing off the counters, so that you would be more comfortable while I was gone?" All he did was sweep the floor and throw out all the fresh fruit I spent a shit ton of money on "because there were fruit flies." And we weren't even keeping the fruit on the part of the counter that we use for food prep! To his credit, at least he admitted "maybe" he was "remembering" the condition of the house before the big push I made to clean it up prior to leaving. But it just goes to illustrate how he doesn't notice what I actually do, and how negative of a view he has of me in his mind. It seems to me that that's the view he has significant motive to preserve.

And idk, is that related to the infidelity?

"And idk, is that related to the infidelity?"

His extreme defensiveness, probably. Could it be that he is now "Hyper blame-avoidant" because he fears that infidelity could happen again as a consequence to something he has done wrong in your eyes? So he has to either find a way to show that you are guilty of the same wrong (whether you are or not), or somehow else avoiding blame by either lying or some other tactic you rightly or wrongly call abuse.

And honestly, not to pick a fight with you, but we have seen you rage out here pretty intensely, and he probably feels winning an argument with you is a life or death thing (figuratively), and that even infidelity could be a consequence of losing an argument about how many times he checked the chicken coop or whatever.

In other words, the infidelity (or near infidelity- I don't think you have ever mentioned if you actually crossed the line beyond making a plan to meet up) is related because it made for him the stakes of your arguments so much higher. So he uses more and more shady tactics in your arguments, which will never get past your hyper-aware mind. So then you call him out on that, and then you are the bad guy. and then it escalates, way out of proportion to the original offense.

Am I on the right track?

Sorry. Please let me explain in another way.

You insist that he is abusing and manipulating you, and that reasonable discussions have not and can not resolve your issues.

You should both separate and get away from this unhealthy situation. I would give you both the same advice.

Whether I believe you or not doesn't matter. Whether it's objectively true or not doesn't matter. If he is abusing you, that is unhealthy. Neither of you should be in that situation, and you should both immediately remove yourselves from it. If there is a teeny, tiny, very, very slim chance that he is not abusing you; the situation is still unhealthy because simply being accused of abuse is serious too.

This is advice for you in particular since you are here. Don't stay in a relationship where you feel you are being abused and manipulated. Just don't. You can't control his actions, so stop trying to control him.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 1:38 PM, Thursday, May 21st]

CantBeMeEither,

His extreme defensiveness, probably. Could it be that he is now "Hyper blame-avoidant" because he fears that infidelity could happen again as a consequence to something he has done wrong in your eyes? So he has to either find a way to show that you are guilty of the same wrong (whether you are or not), or somehow else avoiding blame by either lying or some other tactic you rightly or wrongly call abuse.

Ohhhhh that could be it! How insightful. I'll float this to him re: the recent defensiveness and see what he says about it. If that's the case, that's honestly such a good thing. I know that he struggled with blaming himself for a good while there. I'm sure I didn't help in the beginning If he's finally rejected the blame, that's so big for him!

And honestly, not to pick a fight with you, but we have seen you rage out here pretty intensely, and he probably feels winning an argument with you is a life or death thing (figuratively), and that even infidelity could be a consequence of losing an argument about how many times he checked the chicken coop or whatever.

Ironically, it's the manipulation tactics he uses that trigger me and cause me to rage out. We talked about this. I was explaining that it's not the content of the argument, but the way he argues. He was like, "Well I guess if being mindful of these things would stop you from freaking out at me, I could try it." Uh, yeah, please do. I wish he didn't have the tone he had, where he was trying to make it sound like a ridiculous ask, but at least the words were agreement. I have it recorded. I think if I memorize the study guide and work on utilizing those protective responses, it'll help keep me mindful and I'll be better able to regulate my emotions in the moment. I'll make sure to reassure him that nothing he does is going to make me turn to infidelity again.

In other words, the infidelity (or near infidelity- I don't think you have ever mentioned if you actually crossed the line beyond making a plan to meet up)

This most recent time was an EA, sexting, and a plan to meet up, though I know the exact categorization makes no difference to him. It's all infidelity. Previous instances from several years ago were one-time sexual infidelities without emotional involvement.

Am I on the right track?

I think so! Thank you so much!

Im going to try to be gentler and a little more compassionate here since last time I clearly pissed you off. Its not my intention; to the contrary I see a pair of stuck and frustrated people floundering in a familiar way, and I wish it wasnt so.

I really think emotional disregulation is causing both your husband and your style of communication to tip into the adversarial, accusatory, and defensive realms of litigation. I suspect you are employing similar tactics to him that you outlined in your study guide, because I can see you tend to use them here when our pressure makes you feel attacked. I think you understand that you do this because you feel attacked by what we are saying.

You arent trying to abuse us, manipulate us, systematically put us in a power down situation where reality is adjusted into whats convenient. Thats not your intention. You are just trying to defend a hurting little girl who deserved better. Are you not?

Does it not stand to reason that your husbands behavior has a similar motivation, moulded in like by pain transmitted?

Try to see that how you were hurt became a lasting and festering illness, and that he now has it as well, because you communicated it to him. You cannot reasonably expect him to possess better emotional regulation than you yourself possess, can you?

Yesterday, I was sorely tempted to catalogue some strawmen in your reply to me, replies based on quotes out of context, reference some distorted comparisons, and cross reference your study guides replies to the bullet points that matched your tactics, and finish by saying "if you have a counter to my counter, I know you are intentionally being manipulative". I didnt do this, because It would be bitter and churlish and fail to make progress. It would just add poison where we dont need it. Its a show stopper, not a door opener.

And I think that strategy would be that way if employed on your husband as well.

Youve said a few times that his tactics are systematic. Im not accusing, Im asking;

Is that hyperbole or literally the case?

Could he just be disregulated and trying to survive, as you yourself come to be?

I think its worth attempting to internalize the ways in which you share the pain.

I dont think either of you intend to abuse the other, but you probably both are at least making each other feel abused. If it cant be healed, it cant. Sometimes that happens.

Birds who mate for life have infidelity. The betrayed birds sometimes peck the shit out of the wayward. They lack the words, I suppose to communicate pain without abuse. But it goes to show that some of what you are seeing is highly natural. Pre human. An observable thing. Its still abuse. Its not ok. Im not defending any of the abuse of waywards you see everywhere. Throw a rock and youll hit multiple examples around here.

Im just saying, as infidelity sadly happens, so it is with the retaliatory behaviors. And neither one should, but do.

Im not sure if you mentioned if he has support systems or therapy, or outlets.

I wonder if he is sometimes grey rocking or employing the 180 in his bid to cope. When I did that, my wife said I was abusing her by shutting her out, stonewalling. Im sure it felt that way to her. But I was just trying to protect myself.

Being accused of abuse while you are dying from it is the worst. So I both empathize with your experience of that, and caution you from being on the supply side. Try really hard not to do that.

5bluedrops,

I suspect you are employing similar tactics to him that you outlined in your study guide, because I can see you tend to use them here when our pressure makes you feel attacked.

Let's start here, because that feels like a big topic.

Which tactics do you think I'm employing, and what specifically makes you think that I'm employing them? Specific examples would help me understand what you mean.

I would like to add, before you answer, that when I say "manipulation tactics," it has a very particular meaning. It's not simply "getting someone to do what you want," but doing so in an unfair way that unbalances the other person and keeps the power in the manipulator's hands. Google's AI explains manipulation and how one is supposed to protect oneself well here:

Manipulation is the act of covertly influencing or controlling someone's thoughts, emotions, or behaviors to gain an unfair advantage. It typically involves deceptive or underhanded methods, prioritizing the manipulator’s needs at the expense of others. Understanding and identifying this behavior is crucial for protecting your mental health and personal boundaries.

Common Tactics

Manipulators rely on specific psychological tricks to shift power dynamics in their favor:

- Gaslighting: Making you question your own reality, memory, or sanity.

- Guilt-Tripping: Playing on your empathy to make you feel responsible for their actions or emotions.

- Love-Bombing: Using excessive flattery or affection early on to lower your defenses.

- Isolation: Slowly cutting you off from friends and family to make you entirely dependent on them.

- Shifting Blame: Twisting arguments so that you are made to apologize even when you are the one who was wronged.

How to Protect Yourself

If you suspect you are dealing with a manipulative person, there are concrete steps you can take to reclaim control:

- Set Firm Boundaries: Clearly communicate what you will and will not tolerate, and do not compromise on them.

- Observe, Don't React: Manipulators look for emotional reactions. Staying calm and objective prevents them from using your feelings against you.

- Verify Information: Rely on facts rather than taking what the manipulator says at face value.

- Seek Perspective: Discuss your experiences with a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional to get an outside opinion.

Is that an agreeable definition of "manipulation tactics?" I recognize the list of tactics is a short one and not exhaustive, and some transcend conversation alone. I have the urge to respond with my own thoughts about my communication style and how that interacts with the dynamics here, but I'll reserve them until I have the answers to these questions. I want to make sure we're on the same page before I proceed.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:07 PM, Thursday, May 21st]

Do you love your husband?

Yes, I do. I am working on doing the verb form better.

Stop trying to heal him, to fix him, to change him.

Let him heal himself, in his own way, on his own time. Let him work on his own issues, in his own way, on his own time. We all change over time - and time changes us.

I'll be 60 years old next year. Sixty! And fuck all if it's taken me this long to really understand just how different men and women are on so many different levels and in so many different ways.

What we want in relationships. How we relate to the opposite sex. What we value in ourselves and in our partners. How we communicate. How we process information. How we approach intimacy and what it means to us. How we give and receive love.

The differences are staggering.

We can learn about those differences and, more importantly, how to accept and appreciate them.

That's the verb.

Message received, Unhinged. And I don't mean for this to come across as argumentative, but the distinction is important to me, so I'm going to say it anyway.

I know I can't heal him-- he has to do that himself-- but I want to help him heal [himself]. (Or at the very least, make every effort to ensure I'm not impeding his healing.) I don't think he needs to be "changed" or "fixed" necessarily; this isn't a problem inherent to him as a person or a man. I don't believe this is his nature. If it was, I couldn't stay.

We have been discussing what might be happening in his psyche here, which I very much want to understand. I don't feel close or intimate with him if I don't understand what's happening inside him, especially when, as a result, his actions don't make sense to me... Ultimately this is a relational problem, one that's between us, and that I'm thinking might take two to fix. I appreciate those here who are helping me sort out what my part in this is, what I can control, and what I can't.

He sounded so happy when he called me earlier because he saw we were on the way home from my mother's house earlier than expected. It's tiny things like that which help me to feel like he does love me. And as long as we both love each other, there's hope that we can work through this.

I wish this drive wasn't so fucking long.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:45 AM, Friday, May 22nd]

Patience really is a virtue. We hear that so often it becomes a cliché. But it's true. And it's hard, especially when we're impatient.

Sisoon often writes:
the bs heals the bs,
the ws heals the ws,
together they heal the marriage.

There's a linear nature to it. Personal healing comes first. There's simply no way around it.

Before you can heal your marriage, you're going to have to heal that little girl inside of you who suffered so much terrible trauma. She needs you more than you know.

And as you start to heal her, as you start to find peace with yourself, the path to finding peace with your beloved will reveal itself.

Morbs,

Ive no problems with your definition of intentional manipulation as is.

Where I think we differ is in what kinds of behaviors reliably indicate that dynamic versus what kinds of behaviors can also emerge from ordinary emotional defensiveness, trauma flooding, distrust, fear, or conflict escalation.

To answer your question directly, I do not think you are engaging in things like gaslighting, love-bombing, isolation, or deliberate reality distortion toward us here.

What I was referring to was more the broader conversational dynamics you listed in your study guide:

* redirecting conversations,

* reframing arguments,

* dismissing certain interpretations as bad faith,

* restating your intended meaning repeatedly,

* deciding some explanations don’t track,

* filtering conversations through a lens of perceived adversarial intent,

* and becoming more meta about the communication process itself when you feel misunderstood.

*

For example:
When multiple people suggested that some of your husband’s behavior might plausibly be trauma-reactive rather than intentionally manipulative, you interpreted that as:

* minimizing abuse,

* telling you to tolerate abuse,

* "flipping the narrative,"

* or responding in bad faith.

I don’t think that interpretation was malicious on your part. I think it reflected feeling cornered, invalidated, and protective of yourself and your reality.

Similarly, your "if he develops counters to the counters" statement stood out to me because it builds a framework where resistance to your interpretation could itself become evidence supporting your interpretation.

Again, I do not think you’re consciously trying to control or destabilize people here. I think you’re trying to defend your perception of reality and protect yourself emotionally. When we are in survival mode, winning the fight to survive starts to outprioritize hearing uncomfortable perspectives.

And that’s actually my broader point.

Many behaviors become understandable when viewed through the lens of fear, emotional flooding, self-protection, distrust, shame, or trauma. That applies to both of you.

That doesn’t automatically make either of you abusive.
It also doesn’t automatically make either of you non-abusive.

I’m just urging caution about confidently assigning intentional manipulative motive to behaviors that may also arise naturally inside deeply destabilized relational conflict after infidelity.

To me, that’s the key distinction.

How to get to a place where you and he are attacking your problems together instead of each other? Thats the magic. Thats where something cool can start to happen. I think you both want it. Probably even get there sometimes. But the emotional weight of your respective pain and shames keeps derailing you. Thats where the you heal you, he heals him aspect becomes so needed.

To go a little further; when you beat your partner in an argument, you both lose relationally. Its not a win. Beating your partner in an argument is a loss for what you both want. And both of you are probably going back to thinking otherwise in the heat of your relational dynamics, 'cause self protection.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 12:27 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

But like, you and so many of the others here are imagining that he's just doing normal BS things when we're having conversations about the A, and that's not what's happening here at all.

I don’t imagine this is related to infidelity discussions.

I didn’t actually take it that way at all.

What I am saying is that he is reacting to you as a traumatized person.

It’s not mysterious to me why he doesn’t talk about the affair. You litigate and try and convince him (and us) to perceive it the way you want it to be perceived. He has learned it’s not safe to talk to you about those very humiliating feelings.

So what happens is he still feels all those things and talks to you about more surface things. He is taking it out on things that are less vulnerable. And yes, it’s probably vindictive because he has a lot of resentments right now he doesn’t know how to resolve.

This is not a deficiency in him, this is a reaction that isn’t helping him. But honestly, I don’t really know what else he can do unless he just out right gets a divorce which it doesn’t really seem like that’s what he wants to do.

All the other stuff, so much lower on the scale. Yes, irritating, maybe it makes you feel worthless, but it’s not traumatizing. And until he can have an environment where you aren’t psychoanalizing him and trying to be perceived and understood perfectly the way you want, he doesn’t have the environment to heal.

You just find a way to find humility in all this and let certain things he does go. These were issues you all have had prior, they are pre-a issues. Unitilyou can resolve your trauma response and he can resolve his I don’t think you will be able to progress further. It’s better to find a way to tread water a bit.

And honestly the only thing you can control is your trauma response, and your end of this. We can not do anything about the other stuff which really just sounds like power struggles/control issues which both of you escalate - this might actually recede when you get the individual stuff resolved.

I imagine he did feed your daughter and maybe he is being a little vindictive in not feeding her what you prepared because right now he is taking his resentments out in unhealthy ways because you are not safe to share his pain with. I know you believe you are but I am telling you—-it’s very clear you are not. And I don’t think that’s at all intentionally malicious, but it’s this loop you keep playing out as unhinged is pointing out. It may not

just be with your stepfather but a snowball effect since that.

If you want to help him heal, take only responsibility only for yourself. You have to find a way out of this loop you are in and that change may lead to a change in his reactions.

I am not saying at all this is all you. I am saying that one of you has to lead the charge and it needs to be you. And only about what you can control because the rest of it is only going to bring locking horns which has not been productive and never will be.

And if he's painting me in his head to be lazy and sitting around all day, not tending to my half of the responsibilities because I supposedly don't care about his feelings, even though I'm at least intermittently busting my ass trying to make things better for him because I definitely do care and want to make him happy... What reason does he have to work on his half of the compromise?

This is a good illustration of the loop you are in.

He is holding a lot of resentments. You have cheated twice and trickle truthed him, then litigated all that with him to try and prove your point of view. So now he is just resentful toward you. It’s safer to act like you are lazy but the truth is he sees you in a negative light because he is deeply traumatized by what you did. You are right this isn’t about the laundry.

You argue you can love someone and not treat them well. I think he does love you and want to keep your family together but the part of him that is in deep pain and feeling with what trauma does to the brain has come to only take it out on you in other ways. The other part, it’s too deep for him and he doesn’t trust you with it.

I believe you want it to get better but you do kit yet have yourself to a place where you really can help him. That’s why I think declare a truce.

"We both have a lot of healing to do. I need to spend time looking at myself and practicing new skills. I am hear to listen but I don’t have the answers. I love you and I want to learn to make you feel safer with me"

Then when he does what he does, respond differently. "That must be frustrating" "I am sorry you can’t seem to relax when you are home" just inside know that it’s not about being lazy it’s just redirected anger. Not fighting back or being defensive will change his reaction over time. It will be very hard for you, you are going to have to spend some time feeling misunderstood. But by understanding him, you may find it more tolerable if you stop taking it so deeply personally. After all the laundry and things are morally neutral and do not speak to your value as a person. This may bring the focus back to why he has lost seeing your value over time.

Another good thing besides not litigating and getting defensive is to start just giving him appreciation wherever you can. "Thank you for how hard you work" "thank you for taking good care of our daughter while I was a way." Feeling respected and appreciated instead of manages may help his resentment a good amount. It won’t fix it, but it may improve. Keep in mind you can say these things until the cows come home but the minute you engage in bickering with him about the things that do not matter (housework) it sets that love account back to zero again. You have to commit to not engaging in that.

Your goal is to be the safest person for him for a while. And by modeling that behavior I think he will reciprocate more and maybe start opening up again. He will be able to track the change but it will take a little time and you will notice him start to soften a bit too.

You may need to look at tips on de-escalation. And honestly please learn more about trauma. Even a rudimentary google search her could help you connect the dots.

But the main thing to keep in mind is managing yourself, your responses. Finding a way in the moments to reframe his frustration as this relationship has been spiraling because of things you can not change. Overtime I think you will feel more peace and that will make you feel more stable to him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:31 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

Ive no problems with your definition of intentional manipulation as is.

Great.

To answer your question directly, I do not think you are engaging in things like gaslighting, love-bombing, isolation, or deliberate reality distortion toward us here.

Good. Because I'm not.

What I was referring to was more the broader conversational dynamics you listed in your study guide:

* redirecting conversations,

* reframing arguments,

* dismissing certain interpretations as bad faith,

* restating your intended meaning repeatedly,

* deciding some explanations don’t track,

* filtering conversations through a lens of perceived adversarial intent,

* and becoming more meta about the communication process itself when you feel misunderstood.

Okay. So here is where there's a breakdown in the conversation at hand. Honestly I'm struggling to figure out where to start with this because it's so tangled up...

To me, the list that follows:
A) mixes up what is the manipulation tactic that I catch my H using, vs the response to prevent the manipulation from happening and keep the conversation on track,

and B) demonstrates that you don't quite understand the context in which the manipulation tactics are being used.

None of the things on your first list are manipulation tactics I listed on the study guide, nor do they fit the agreed upon definition of manipulation tactics. C), I disagree that I'm doing some of those things, but that's taking the conversation in a different direction, so I'm going to focus on A and B.

So to correct A and B, maybe I can walk you through an item or two on the study guide, explain more clearly what part is the manipulation tactic and what part is the prevention response, and give you an example for context. The study guide is structured so that the manipulation tactic is identified first, and then what comes after the arrows are the prevention response. Some of them have follow up steps to take if the manipulation tactic persists. Let's refer back to the study guide:

Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed -> "We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]" + continue where I left off

So here, "Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed" is the manipulation tactic. A real example of this that I can provide you is me saying to him, "I have concerns about our child's nutrition while I'm away," and we get as far on that topic as the expression that she needs to eat often and to have nutritious foods, but before we get to the part where we're supposed to address the issue, he veers off subject by introducing another one: "Well, at least I don't let her watch TV all day long like you do!" This shifts the focus of the conversation so that he doesn't have to accept fault for not feeding her properly, to something that I'm not doing well enough, before he agrees to make changes. That's manipulative.

"'We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]' + continue where I left off" is the response formula for preventing the manipulation. Here, that would sound like:

"We can talk about the amount of TV I let her watch later, if you'd like. I want to circle back to her nutrition... Are you able to make sure she has three meals a day and a couple snacks, and that she's getting fruits and vegetables during at least two of her meals?" This keeps the conversation on track so that we can address the issue. I care about the fact he doesn't like how much TV he watches and I'm willing to address that issue as well, just not at the expense of addressing her nutrition. Does that make sense?

Or this item on the study guide:

Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere) -> "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." If misconstruction continues -> exit conversation: "This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later" + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response.

Here, "Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere)" is the manipulation tactic. A real-life example of that is:

BH asking what we should do about dinner, because it was getting late,
Me responding by asking, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make those chicken nuggets you said you wanted to make, and it'll go bad if we don't cook it soon. I know the countertop is a mess, but I could move everything to the sink and do dishes while you cook. Or I could move everything to the sink, make something else with the chicken, and do the dishes in between tasks or afterwards..."
And his response was, "I don't understand why the expectation is for me to come home and have to cook dinner." (Here is the misconstruction of what it is I actually said.)
Now I'm back tracking and re-explaining, "That's not what I said. I said the chicken was going to go bad; I didn't freeze it because I thought you still wanted to make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up. You told me you didn't mind cooking dinner some nights, and so I asked you if you wanted to cook. I didn't say that I expected you to."
Him: "You sure made it seem like you did. And what I said was that I don't mind cooking dinner when the counter tops are clean" (Here he is doubling down on his interpretation of my words, rather than acknowledging that he misunderstood what was said.)
Me: "I didn't expect you to cook. I said I would clean off the countertops if you wanted to cook, or that I could cook--"
Him: "Why are you making crazy eyes and using that tone with me? You know what, I want an apology."

Notice how in that conversation, the focus shifted from what we were doing for dinner, to what was previously said and meant (i.e., the conversation becomes about itself, or 'meta') and we don't actually decide on what it is we're doing for dinner. All the while, it's getting later and later.

Back to the study guide. "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." is the first step in the prevention response, to be used after my words get misconstrued. That might look like:

"Originally when I said, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up," what I meant was that I was asking you if you wanted to cook. I also offered to cook. Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood."

The study guide then says "If misconstruction continues," which might look like BH responding with "You sure made it seem like you expect me to cook,"
The follow up step is "exit conversation: 'This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later' + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response."

Which, in practice, looks like saying just that, and then after a brief break, re-initiating the conversation with something like, "Okay, let's figure out dinner. We need to use up that chicken. Would you like for me to clear the countertops so you can make chicken nuggets, or would you like me to cook?"

Then see how he responds to that. If he again returns to "Why do you expect me to cook?" it would suggest to me that he is intent on misconstruing what I'm asking, and the manipulation tactic is being used on purpose.

Does that make sense? Hopefully that clears up and contextualizes the study guide a bit for you.

Turning back to the next part of your response...

For example:
When multiple people suggested that some of your husband’s behavior might plausibly be trauma-reactive rather than intentionally manipulative, you interpreted that as:

* minimizing abuse,

* telling you to tolerate abuse,

* "flipping the narrative,"

* or responding in bad faith.

I didn't start off with saying he's doing it intentionally. I said that he very well may be doing it unintentionally. That being said, even if it is not intentional, these tactics are still manipulative, and in the broader context of distorting reality to his convenience and preventing me from communicating through issues with me effectively, they are abusive. Intentional or not, I still need it to stop, especially if I'm going to be mentally sound enough to be present for his infidelity-related pain.

People here responded with assertions that:

1) This is not abuse
2) This is a normal response to infidelity and not actually that bad ("not being nice"/"being short with you"/"cat scratch")
3) That I'm making these tactics up, and that they're not actually happening,
4) That I'm making up allegations of abuse because I'm avoiding accountability for my infidelity, because I am a WS and "that's what WS do"
5) That if I don't secure my ego, pony up, and tolerate the psychological abuse, and just be grateful that I'm even being offered a chance at reconciliation, that reconciliation isn't going to happen
6) That I'm actually the one being manipulative/abusive towards him by planning protective responses
7) That I'm engaging in manipulation tactics here
8) That they understand exactly what I meant, despite me explaining what they have wrong about my situation, and they don't need to adjust their responses to make them applicable to my situation,
9) That if I don't agree with others re: 1-8, then I'm just being defensive/litigative/desiring an echo chamber

1 and 2 are minimization of the abuse.
3 is just denial that there's an issue here
4 is evidence of bias.
5 is recommendation to tolerate the abuse (and even some attempts at shaming me into tolerating the abuse)
6 and 7 are flipping the narrative
8 and 9 are manipulation tactics themselves.

That's not merely "suggesting his actions are a trauma response."

I think it reflected feeling cornered, invalidated, and protective of yourself and your reality.

That's a lot of assumption about how I'm feeling. I haven't been "cornered;" that's your perception of this interaction. This conversation has featured undeniable invalidation (see 1-4); I don't need to "feel" it. I am protective of reality (not "my reality," notably), and I have sufficiently protected myself from it being distorted here.

When we are in survival mode, winning the fight to survive starts to outprioritize hearing uncomfortable perspectives.

This is ironically an example of number 8 and 9. "It's not that we don't understand what you're saying or key aspects of your situation as you describe them. We have those things right, and we don't need to adjust our responses. You just don't like them and you're being defensive, and that's why you're not agreeing with us."

Have you perhaps considered approaching conversations with WS with the possibility that they can be reliable narrators of their own thoughts, feelings, experiences, and situations in mind? Rather than with the bias that they are all defensive and protective of fake realities? The latter makes for unproductive conversations, and this one is largely an example of that.

To go a little further; when you beat your partner in an argument,

Again with the insistence that I care about "winning" or "beating him." I've told you guys many times, I am focused on getting to the Truth of the matter at hand, and finding solutions that reflect that Truth. If I'm coming to him with concerns about our daughter's nutrition, for example, and he denies that he feeds her improperly, well then, I'm going to collect objective data about what she's eating when I'm not there, and then come to the next conversation with that data, not because I want to "win" the argument, but because if she's not being fed properly, THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED. If I need to go and establish an anchor to reality, it's not because I want to "beat him;" it's because he attempting to distort it.

I love my husband. He's a wicked smart and a very wise individual, and I trust his decision making like 95% of the time. I am 100% willing to consider his thoughts and points as if they were my own. If he makes good points, and they are better than my points, or I have no counterpoints to them, then it's nothing but beneficial to go with what he's saying. "Winning" every time is not what gets us maximal ROI based on the complete data set, which I have expressed before is what I'm most interested in. You guys are just assuming my pride is getting in the way of listening and/or admitting when I'm wrong because I'm a WS, but that's not the case here.

Hey, it was worthwhile to talk with you, even though we wont ever get anywhere.

I hope it all works out, and that good things happen for you and your family, beyond all expected possible outcomes.

And may you come to be or be already as happy as I myself hope to
someday be.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 5:57 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

** Member to Member **

I urge you to read this and every post telling yourself that no one here wants to hurt you. But you've stressed SI to the limit, and you can expect some indirect, confrontative pushback. I assure you that I'm impatient, but I - and everybody else who responds to you - wish you the best. It's just that we do not know how to get through to you.

Feel free to stop reading, though. Feel free to move on to the next response or thread.

*****

"Originally when I said, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up," what I meant was that I was asking you if you wanted to cook....

A few thoughts...

You admit not saying what you meant, but you gloss over it. Both actions stand out to me.

I do not believe that you were giving your H a free choice. Your H also clearly thought you were manipulating him. You seem to have ignored that.

My reco is to ask yourself, 'In what ways are the others making valid observations?' The feedback you get is so consistent, the feedback has almost definitely gotten something right. You know that - it's why you get defensive.

Especially when you think you've been misconstrued, I urge you to ask yourself, 'What did I say that supports the misconstruction?'

There are lots of problems with NLP (searchable), but I think their basic premise is right on: the receiver of a communication decides what it means.

IOW, people 'misconstrue' what you say because you don't say what you mean effectively. The way out of that trap is to communicate in a different way, but you insist on using the same approach. If you want to get an idea across, you need to say it in ways that your target can take it in. Unfortunately, the burden is on you. I know you don't think that's fair. I'd even agree that it isn't fair. But it's the way people behave.

I accept your description of your family. That's unfair, too. You should have been loved. I'm sorry you weren't.

*****

I understand that you want to help your H heal. Exactly how do you think that would work?

Have you asked your H what he wants? How can you help without doing what he wants? Suppose he wants something you're unwilling to give? If he doesn't know what he wants, isn't taking action risky - suppose you attempt to read his mind and pick exactly the opposite of what he wants?

The best thing you can do is ask him what he wants. If he doesn't answer, tell him to ask for it when he figures it out. That's the best help you can give, IMO.

*****

Another reco: if you haven't read Melody Beattie, do so. If you have read her, read her again - and instead of rejecting what she writes, ask yourself what characteristics you DO show that indicate co-dependence.