SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

hikingout

I will give you a more comprehensive response when I get a chance, that being said I do feel we are reaching the respectively agree to disagree portion of our discussion.

You seem to draw your opinions on this from your lived experience and specific examples you've come across on this forum. Of course I'm not criticising this, its natural and normal for people to do. That being said, I personally feel it seems to cloud you from seeing possible alternative outcomes.

For example:

A person willing to have sex with a married person does not have the same boundaries or mental processing as someone who has sex with a single or at least separated person. Because a single person, especially a female can find plenty of single men to have sex with.

I can tell you now that in a hypothetical world, where I was single and an old FWB reached out and explained that her partner had been cheating on her and she wanted to get him back, I'd be game as hell. My thoughts would be, if you think this will make you feel better. Let do this. Screw that guy.

who likely just wants to use you to feel better.

This simply describes hook up culture generally. Two consenting individuals, using each other to make them feel better.

Similarly you are presuming all waywards are the perfect wayward spouse. One that will do the work, be truly remorseful. Will be racked with guilt. Of course these forums are likely heavily skewed towards waywards who are like this, as these are the people truly fighting to change. This is in no way representative of the cheating community. If it was, we'd be looking at far higher successful reconciliation stats, as opposed to 20 or so percent you commonly see reported.

Again, you are presuming all waywards are hurt and broken. Filled with regret. That no punishment or justice is required because they're doing way worse to themselves. I'm suggesting this isn't true across this board.

I know for fact some cheater out there that have no regrets other than getting caught. Ever read R/Adultery - it's out there. I even had a discussion with an old co-worker who was sleeping with a girl at the office, once he was caught by his partner, him and his partner reconciled. Over a pint, many months later he told me 'being in the dog house for a couple of months and a few therapy sessions was a well worth trade for 6 months of fun'

Yes, he was likely a sociopath. A bad person. How is a bs to know the difference between these wayward and those on this site?

Some people do need justice enforced and will only adapt their behaviors in the face of this.

You seem to draw your opinions on this from your lived experience and specific examples you've come across on this forum. Of course I'm not criticising this, its natural and normal for people to do. That being said, I personally feel it seems to cloud you from seeing possible alternative outcomes.

I honestly never expected us to come to an agreement. However, I will take the real lived experience and the people that I have been here with me the last 7.5 years as a better study in infidelity and healing than hypothetical examples and comparing any of this to hook up culture of single people.

But I wish you the best. It’s been a great discussion and I think a lot of wisdom showed up on this thread. You choosing to disagree with it doesn’t really negate that wisdom. Everyone had their own journey to fundamental truths and I do not expect to influence that journey other than to be here to listen and help.

Again, you are presuming all waywards are hurt and broken. Filled with regret. That no punishment or justice is required because they're doing way worse to themselves. I'm suggesting this isn't true across this board.

Nope you are reading me wrong. I am presuming you should divorce them. The reason I am talking about remorseful waywards is because cheating will block reconciliation of you want it.

I believe I said in my earlier post to you- that if you want to divorce do whatever you want. With the caution it may also make you feel worse than if you skipped the RA and went straight to the divorce. If you remember I said to wwTL I can understand how the separation and sowing his oats felt like empowerment.

This is not me being anti-bs empowerment. This is me being pro-bs empowerment by suggesting if they don’t know what they want to figure it out and move towards it.

A fee make bs spoke up and said what actually made them heal versus a revenge affair. I have far more respect for them than to dismiss that wisdom.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:54 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

"I can tell you now that in a hypothetical world, where I was single and an old FWB reached out and explained that her partner had been cheating on her and she wanted to get him back, I'd be game as hell. My thoughts would be, if you think this will make you feel better. Let do this. Screw that guy."

(Sorry; I’ve never been able to successfully use the quote feature).

I’m sure we’re basically in agree to disagree space here, but this feels so warped to me. I could see how you could make case for this not being morally wrong (though it feels like eye for an eye, now everybody’s blind territory). But mainly I just can’t see an RA as a path to real healing and wholeness. Something making you feel better doesn’t actually mean it’s healing or healthy.

My husband ripped my heart out when he cheated on me, but I don’t see any action motivated by the desire to cause him pain as a true way forward for me, regardless of whether we stayed together or divorced.

[This message edited by Grieving at 6:21 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

I knew as the ws my affair had nothing to do with him. It was in no way a statement of who he was or what he had to offer. So I think it only softened the blow that I knew that his affair had nothing to do with me.

Obviously no RA in my case, but I, too, very quickly (within minutes, maybe within seconds) realized my W's A was about her, not about me.

I asked very soon after my W revealedg her A how much anger at me played a part in her decision to cheat. She said, '5%.' I thought that was great - then I realied that no amount of anger justified the A - her anger was hers, no matter what she thought caused it.

Despite knowing and confirming that my W's A was not about me and not my issue to solve, I felt awful about myself.... I guess I knew my healing was going to require me to fight a war between my desire for peace and contentment and my negative self-talk, and I knew how powerful self-talk is....

BTW, my W offered me hall pass. My sense of fairness told me my ap had to a man I found unattractive ... that wasn't appealing to me. I already knew that my inability to surprise my W with an RA made it impossible to hurt her as much as she hurt me.

The RA proposition just doesn't hold up....

*****

I am claiming that if hikingout is remorseful for striking first, hikingout is always going to feel less bad about Mrhikingout's slap than hikingout2 will feel about Mrhikingout2's slap. I feel that this is simply how human remorse works and it is not just for affairs or slaps but any negative ACTION and SAME_ACTION_AS_RESPONSE pair between two people.

I expect the first offender's remorse would be a 2ndary consideration.

The primary consideration, IMO, would have been 'fight back!' or 'run!'. If hiking struck out, I expect she would not have worried about how or how much she hurt Mr Hiking.

We ere embracing when W told me something was very wrong. I jumped out of an embrace for the 2nd time in 45 years. That was my immediate way of punishing her. It took me 2 years to realize I could not punish my W without adding to my own hurt. Giving up the hope of punishing her was a lot better for me than imposing more punishment.

The people who are happy in their new marriage after infidelity came to many understandings about what they wanted out of a marriage, out of themselves, and they have truly designed a deeper more satisfying relationship with themselves and their partner.

That’s why I stayed as both the ws and the bs. Remorse really doesn’t play into it....

Exactly, IMO. My W says that it took at least the 1st 5 months to see her A as just another sordid affair and to begin to be remorseful. She started doing the right things on d-day, though, even without remorse.

In any case, I feared that we might do the work of healing and end up with one of us wanting to R and one of us deciding we'd rather dump the other.

...as the ws the reason I was starved for connection going into my affair is I didn’t feel worthy to receive it.

That's why it is sometimes said that 'love is not enough.'

I loved my W from the moment I fell for her in 1965. I loved her more than she loved me all through our M almost up to d-day itself. I'm apparently limerent, and she isn't. It was only after d-day that I realized she probably could not have found a better H for herself.

I gave her love and acceptance, and she knew it in her head, but she could not take in that love. Her self-esteem was so weak that she could not accept that I loved her. Meanwhile, I could not see her low self-esteem, because I esteemed her so highly. We were vulneable to a lot of hurt. Would we have felt better or been better off if she had had a 'nervous breakdown'? Maybe; maybe not.

*****

You seem to draw your opinions on this from your lived experience and specific examples you've come across on this forum.

But that's all that any of us knows.

We all have to accept what other people say on many topics because we can't do our own research. I 'know' the speed of light from someone else's experiments.

But none of us has reliable data about infidelity. The studies rely on self-reporting, for one thing, and the numbers of subjects just don't make up enough to support generalizations. I've been looking at infidelity stats for 14+ years, and I've never seen 20%. I know Peggy Vaughan's survey say a mjority stay together, but staying together is a low bar, IMO. I also know that only 20% of couples treated by Shirley Glass who said they wanted to R split, but that was 2-30 years ago, and Glass was probably an extremely talented therapist.

SO theories can't help much in healing. What really helps is personal experience.

Of course I'm not criticising this, its natural and normal for people to do. That being said, I personally feel it seems to cloud you from seeing possible alternative outcomes.

That seems like a jump too far. Relating one's own experience does not imply blindness to the experience of others.

Look at the posts of experienced SIers. You will see some posters who think there's one legitimate response to being betrayed; they rarely relate their own experience. You'll also see posters who relate their own experience and indicate, often explicitly, that others have to make their own decisions.

Look at the staff. Some of us have R'ed; some have D'ed or otherwise ended the relationship with the betrayer. The staff has, in the past, included former WSes. But all the staff share their own experiences so readers can tell something about where they and their ideas come from.

Again, you are presuming all waywards are hurt and broken. Filled with regret. That no punishment or justice is required because they're doing way worse to themselves. I'm suggesting this isn't true across this board.

How on earth do you get the idea that such a suggestion is needed?

First you state, accurately, that posters just report their own experience, and then you generalize from that experience. That's really bad thinking, especially when the specific experience is followed pretty closely by some sort of 'but your experience may be different,' or even, 'But I read your posts to say your experience is different.'

Look, I know I can get overly optimistic - I know I have filters in my head that I need to guard against. My reco is to check for and check out your own filters. I mean: you're making basic logical errors. Unrecognized filters area likely cause.

I think this only speaks to your own morals and viewpoint.

I can tell you now that in a hypothetical world, where I was single and an old FWB reached out and explained that her partner had been cheating on her and she wanted to get him back, I'd be game as hell. My thoughts would be, if you think this will make you feel better. Let do this. Screw that guy

Congratulations hypothetical you is literally now some of my wife’s APs minus the part of me cheating on her. She claimed I didn’t love her or connect with her emotionally. They used that opportunity to move in and let’s do this. Screw that guy right? Somehow you expect us to believe that you would draw the line and only do that if she was being cheated on? Naw… you would do it to feed your ego plain and simple. All you have to go on is her say so…and cheaters are notoriously incapable of being trusted. It seems you now also have no morals qualms about being an AP? Why only if you were single?

I guess I am confused. Is hypocritical you not your current position?

[This message edited by Tobster1911 at 9:00 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

Well I'm glad we kept this civil given the hot button topics in discussion. I must concede despite my best efforts, I too have been triggered at recent posts but happy to see edits have been made to keep things in a good place.

I hold no Ill will understanding we're all human. I too am happy to retract anything raised with me that people feel is out of line.

minus the part of me cheating on her.

Which literally changes everything based off the arguments I've been making.

First you state, accurately, that posters just report their own experience, and then you generalize from that experience. That's really bad thinking, especially when the specific experience is followed pretty closely by some sort of 'but your experience may be different,' or even, 'But I read your posts to say your experience is different

If this is the conclusion you have come to, I'm not sure I've clearly explained myself here. I'm not generalising at all, I'm willing to accept that both scenarios can be true. I couldn't see the same fair engagement from Hikingout.

I can concede that under certain circumstances, it would be meaningless to want revenge against a remorseful wayward spouse, my point is their was no consideration for an alternative circumstance. Pointing out not all waywards are in line with the people we see on these boards.

My point is to say I'm not letting my lived experience create a blind spot for seeing an alternative stance. I can see many scenarios where RAs are horrendous ideas. Many of these scenarios have been outlined by posters with vast experience. I'm not discrediting this experience. In some situations RAs will do nothing positive for anyone. I just can't see how you can blankety say that this would be the case for every possible (up to and including hypothetical) scenario.

I’m sure we’re basically in agree to disagree space here, but this feels so warped to me. I could see how you could make case for this not being morally wrong (though it feels like eye for an eye, now everybody’s blind territory). But mainly I just can’t see an RA as a path to real healing and wholeness. Something making you feel better doesn’t actually mean it’s healing or healthy.

So if you can see how I can suggest it isn't morally wrong, my next point would be who am I to suggest what is best to this victim. Or know definitely what will heal someone or not. In my response was a little flippant, if I cared for her personally, I would discuss this more in depth to see if she truly thinks it was a good idea. That being said, I'm simply not convinced an RA could never be healing experience under any scenario. I can see how it wouldn't be in many scenarios though.

I may not be as educated on the topic of healing from infidelity as other members but I would like to think my lived experience wouldn't be questioned. Infidelity has been a source a pain that stains my entire life, from relationships with parents onwards. I have survived this.

I wouldn't engage in R or RAs. I was merely trying to envisage how someone with my temperament and beliefs would survive a crucmstance in which divorce was not an option. Largely these post have not been relevant to me but maybe it's time to end thought experiments.

I think I'll end my contribution to this topic here.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:05 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

The primary consideration, IMO, would have been 'fight back!' or 'run!'. If hiking struck out, I expect she would not have worried about how or how much she hurt Mr Hiking.

Correct. His affair, had I chosen to avoid my own issues, would have been my get out of jail free card. I could have used it to say "well I don’t want to hear about it anymore because you did the exact same thing" most long timers her know that we are the most avoidant people on earth.

If I had been earlier in the process I am not sure I wouldn’t have done that. And it would have been a huge misguided decision. It likely would have been the death knell in us seeking a connected satisfying relationship. Hearing him out, him hearing me out. No one making excuses for their behaviors, this is how we were able to cross a bridge together rather than go in opposite directions.

Had he kept at a "you did it first defense" or I kept a "you did it too defense" nothing could have been worked out. I can assure you jad it been him to hold that stance his options with me would have dissipated very quickly.

A big rule of whether R can be successful: own your shit. And for the other person, nothing can move forward until you do.

Well I'm glad we kept this civil given the hot button topics in discussion. I must concede despite my best efforts, I too have been triggered at recent posts but happy to see edits have been made to keep things in a good place.

Yes, I am sorry I was very triggered by your last post probably because I had just finished writing the post before it and felt very vulnerable in my writing. It came across to me that I had sort of just bared my soul to be greeted with something abrupt. After careful reconsideration, I realized you were simply continuing our conversation despite the other I was having. But what I wrote was unfair as it dismisses that likely there is an unhealed place in you that came looking for something in here.

I am sorry I can not give you the same engagement on agreeing on any point that would encourage some poor bs out there reading to do something I find destructive for them. I do. It feel that this has anything to do with what kind of ws they have. It has everything to do with them living what they know are their values and using that as a stepping stone to heal regardless of the outcome of their marriage.

I am very aware there are a spectrum of ws. Some of the worst stories have come through in these forums. I have encouraged the bs to divorce in those scenarios because that is the quickest path to their own healing. They simply deserve better. No time to waste in getting a revenge affair, just get out. But when reconciliation is truly in the table and something the bs wants, how can you expect me to agree that they should make that option a lot shakier?

Empowering a bs is encouraging them to focus on themselves, to figure out what they want, and that often takes time. Most bs need at least 6-months to a year to be ready to call it. If they are continuing to be abused, we encourage detachment, if not total separation or divorce. These are called healthy and sane options. You will never find me in agreement with anything other than I just laid out. I understand that is not your opinion on what could help. I can’t fault you for this. I just have never seen a bs corroborating this was a good thing to do for themselves. Well I have when they first did it, but I don’t know if one who was happy about it as time
Progressed. Very much the pattern you see with the original ws.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:33 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

I have so many questions: When you started sleeping with your ex again did you do all these acts? Or where they then triggers?

Are you wider family more supportive of the divorce now some time has passed? How is your wife now? Is she dating? How about you? Are you dating and happy? I'm not sure if this is the correct forum for these questions though.

This is an interesting thread so don’t want to t/j much, but she did offer up those acts and others they did. I wanted no parts of it. Those particular acts were not triggers. What was the biggest trigger was knowing I was engaging with her hours after she slept with him. I know others have gotten past that, but I can’t figure out how. His swimmers ended up in my mouth no matter how hard she brushed. Still disgusted thinking about that

I’m good and have a girlfriend, and we negotiated a truce with the family. My EX has not recovered and at this point things aside from being ok financially, is a train wreck.

As to the title of the thread, I was offered not only a hall pass, but she offered up one of her single friends who thought I was attractive. didn’t bite although it was tempting.

Hiking, I just wanted to reiterate what others here have said, you truly are a treasure on this site. There are very few WS that post, and actually give the insights that you do. Your thoughts on my situation is particularly impactful as I think the reason for your affair and my EX’s were very similar.

What wasn’t similar is how you handled the aftermath. You confessed, you were a one and done (at least over a single short time frame) and you managed to keep your dignity. If Mrs WWTL did what you did, she still might still be Mrs WWTL.

What also impressed me is how you handled his RA if that’s what it was. It ticks all my buttons to get pissed off. In your home, with someone your WS has you interact with, and continuing for a good amount of time. Look, no affair is good. But like other crimes there are degrees and his affair was way more destructive than yours. I think, and I have said this, that if she had done it one time and confessed we would still be married. If she did what Mr HO did, not so much.

Thanks waited. We have had a great amount of discussion over the years and I completely understand your perspective.

I do not feel that I did keep my dignity. Not because I cheated but because I was really unrepentful even though I confessed. I personally think had I not pined for the AP and instead turned my attention more towards him with remorse earlier in the process, he would have had an easier time.

For my husband, the emotional attachment and things I said to the AP and the ways I defended the ap were almost his "swimmers in his mouth" so to speak. (Though I wouldn’t compare the exact two things, I am saying that most bs have things they get stuck on, somethings can just be overcome easier than what others experienced- I will remind you that I likely kissed him on days of his escapades)

Yes, I found my way over the next six months from the day I confessed, but there were plenty of sticking points. My husband said that in our marriage he had felt worshipped by me over the years. I can see how that would be. For him to find out some of that was precipitated by people pleasing and not a loving nature, he felt duped for the entire marriage.

I think now he sees that I do have a loving nature, I just say no to more stuff I don’t want to do and I tell him what I want more or less of. I think for myself instead of just trying to go along with what others want. I think that helped him adjust his picture of me. But it understandably took years for him to develop that differentiation. It took considerable effort for him to begin accepting my bids of affection and loving acts are now coming from a healthier place.

I say that because I can’t have what I did minimized, even though I understand exactly what you are saying and don’t totally disagree with what you are saying. Thank you for that. It’s taking me some time to really allow myself to get angry over some of those things. I think I repressed the anger because I think it was so big and it would get muffled watching how broken he was. It’s weird because I am happy, but some of that has been because the anger has started to move over the past year or so. And it’s been years! But I think it’s because he is no longer broken and can take some of it better.

(And don’t picture that I am at home yelling at him, we have very civil conversations about it. I have gone places and screamed, hit a smash room, axe throwing, and I just channel it violently in a safe way)

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:06 PM, Saturday, February 8th]

I think now he sees that I do have a loving nature, I just say no to more stuff I don’t want to do and I tell him what I want more or less of. I think for myself instead of just trying to go along with what others want.

Again, like you she was a people pleaser. She had so many awards and was constantly being honored by the charity she worked with, school boards, hospital than anyone I know. Like you though, she didn’t do it just for the accolades. Much of her contributions were never even known.

Where she really fell apart was in not saying no. Especially after the affair, and especially towards me. Prior to the affair we made decisions together, although in hindsight she did mostly defer to me, but there was always a discussion. After she couldn’t made a decision to save her life. The most common refrain from her to me was "you pick". It wasn’t really done to appease me, but more as she so questioned her judgment as she was terrified that I was going to toss her out if she lost one of my socks. It became infuriating to me. I wanted a partner, but got a step ford wife. Good in principle but not healthy or would make either spouse happy. Good for you standing up for what you want

My point is to say I'm not letting my lived experience create a blind spot for seeing an alternative stance.

What blind spot(s) do you see in the responders to this thread?

I can see many scenarios where RAs are horrendous ideas.

I've read reports of RAs for almost over a decade and a half. I can't remember reading of an RA that wasn't horrendous.

I perhaps do have an unusually low tolerance for dishonesty. I've read posts from people who became WSes as a result of their RAs and who didn't feel remorse. I consider that to be 'horrendous'. Others may disagree; I appreciate their honesty but wouldn't trust them without verifying, for reasons explained previously.

*****

To address mardando's question about wants vs. needs. I'll start by saying some people think and/or act as if they need external validation, but they don't. The belief, however, is sometimes enough to screw up their lives.

With regard to wants, I'm not sure one needs to limit one's wants, although I guess one can go overboard on anything.

I know someone who used to want to win riches and recognition from his writing. His goal when he started was to win the Nobel in literature, but that isn't going to happen for him. He wants external validation. He's gotten good reviews, and he's gotten bad ones But he's OK if his writing meets his own standards.

Compare that to what people pleasers and former people pleasers say on SI - they find it very difficult to get out of that role.

Or consider the BSes who write of their KISA (knight in shining armor) WSes; KISa are often wedded to the role.

Think about the people who go through life thinking they 'need' the love of their lover. (I'm not referring to people who have, say, a need for financial support from their partner.) Doroty Tannov wrote about that in Love and Limerence. Or think about the even darler side of love - the people who do violence to themselves or others when their love objects do not reciprocate.

Wanting external validation doesn't bother me. Thinking one needs it does.

If there's a significant difference between 'need' and 'think one needs', I apologize for not making that distinction earlier.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ok I'm definitely thinking the discussions have been mixed up or something. I get the feeling that responses to me start by answering my question but then meander towards answering DrSooler's positions as the post continue. Or that they think that if my question is answered in the affirmative that I'll start thinking RA's are ok, so they're preemptively trying to dissuade me.
Now if the responses were simply being directed to both of us at the same time, ok that's fine, but I do want to make sure I'm not being misunderstood and my questions aren't being confused for his positions and vice versa.
@hikingout

Generally speaking, I did not feel obligated at all to stay in my marriage even though I cheated. Forget that he did it. Let’s look at that isolated. Yes, I genuinely regret what I did, and I have deep remorse for what I did to him. But that did not bind me to him. The process of that decision gets forged in steel when you truly put all the good, bad, ugly in the table and truly make decisions about what you want moving forward and have a deep sense of why.

I wasn't implying that the remorse made any material difference in the decisions you made, I'm wondering if the remorse had any dampening effect on the impact of the RA; not if that effect made any actual difference in the final outcome. I think the fact that I used divorce in my first example has kinda muddied the waters and might be leading to inference of stuff that wasn't implied. So I'll try to clean up a bit.

First let me go back to my eye for an eye hypothetical and then zoom out:

Lets wind back the clock to before any affairs happened. hikingout and Mrhikingout are drinking and have a heated argument that spirals out of control, hikingout slaps Mrhikingout and tears his cornea in one eye. Mrhikingout slaps hikingout back and gives her the same corneal tear in one eye. They then say sorry to each other and take an uber to the ER. In parallel universe of hikingout2 and Mrhikingout2 everything progresses exactly the same way except that Mrhikingout2 slaps hikingout2 first and gives her the same corneal tear as the previous pair. hikingout2 does not hit back, Mrhikingout says sorry to hikingout2 and they take an uber to the ER.

Ok, now lets swap out Mrhikingout for hikingoutsister, or swap out the hikingout couple and corneal tears for two boys and their wrecked bikes, or the two partners and their totaled cars from page 1, or even hikingout and mardandra and vile recriminations over being mistaken for DrSoolers!... , or ultimately:

any negative ACTION and SAME_ACTION_AS_RESPONSE pair between two people.

What I am trying to make plain is that I am not *really* asking about divorce, reconciliation, work on why's, etc. I am asking about remorse, but since I'm asking about your experience of remorse I have to talk about all those things even though they aren't what I'm really getting at because they feature prominently in your experience.

Now let me zoom out even more -- Replace "any negative ACTION and SAME_ACTION_AS_RESPONSE pair between two people" with:

any negative ACTION and SAME_OR_DIFFERENT_ACTION_AS_RESPONSE pair between two people.

Now the action and reaction don't even have to be comparable. In this context your "affair" could be purposefully crashing Mrhikingout's car, and his "revenge affair" could be burning your heirloom wedding dress, etc. Yet within this context it is still possible for remorse to exist in the case where you transgress first. Thus, if there is some dampening effect from remorse on the harm you take from the "RA" then it should still be present even when "I know what he's going through" or "I know it had nothing to do with me", etc. don't apply. That isn't to say that those realizations or knowledge have no effect, but rather that I'm not interested in them right now, so I'm trying to use various means like hypotheticals to filter them out.

This is also the reason for the setup of my eye for an eye hypothetical -- a simple transgression(which might be in the heat of the moment) to filter out extensive FOO analysis, short timeline to filter out deep introspection in between action and reaction, etc.

I almost get the feeling that while I'm trying to filter out those variables so I can focus on remorse, you're focusing on those variables to show that RA's are bad -- which is fine -- except that I feel that response is being directed to me instead of DrSoolers. This is what I meant by discussions getting mixed.

Now back to the notion of "obligation" and what I mean by the remorse effect not necessarily being decisive. Consider the scenario in which your husband's RA was absolutely heinous such that even though the remorse dampened the damage somewhat, it was still way more than enough for you to want D. And naturally, in the case where you husband cheats first, you want D also.
So here the remorse had an effect but did not change the outcome, it was NOT decisive even though it is present and noticeable. Here is where I think discussion mixing happened again because I think DrSoolers claim was kinda similar. His was

Shouldn't we presume the tolerance of RA's by WSes to be enormous or infinite?
whereas mine is:
Do remorseful WS have a noticeably enhanced tolerance for RA's due to their remorse?

Finally, given the complexities of your particular situation I think asking a slightly different question might work better: Instead of just remorse, take the sum total of all emotions(remorse, etc.), feelings(empathy for what he's going through, etc.), realizations(work done on your why's, etc.), and any other effect that you felt reduced the impact of the RA on you, due to the fact that you cheated first and felt sorry about having done so. How would you describe the potency of this total effect, low, moderate, high?

I’ve been thinking about this, and writing sometimes clarifies my thinking, so here goes.

"Revenge affairs." I don’t like the word "affairs", and I’m not sure we’re all using "revenge" the same way, so I’m going to start with "Responsive Cheating." That is, I engage in an emotional and/or physical relationship with a woman not my wife, in response to my wife’s cheating on me.

Seems to me there are two types.

The first is what I’ll call "Revenge Cheating." I’m defining "revenge" as getting even. Hurting someone in response to their hurting you. Damaging someone as they damaged you. In my definition, my WW would have to know what I’d done. Either I would have to tell her, or make sure she found out, somehow.

This is a non-starter for me, for three reasons:

1. I would be abusing some woman (she wouldn’t be married), telling a bunch of lies, for my selfish aims.

2. I don’t want to hurt my WW. Did she treat me terribly, act horribly? Yes. But I don’t want to hurt her.

3. It wouldn’t be tit-for-tat. Whatever my WW’s motivations were (validation, "caught" feelings, better sex, etc.), she was not trying to hurt me. Should she have known I was going to be hurt? Of course. But it never entered her mind, because she never imagined getting caught. If I ever thought she was intentionally trying to hurt me, I would have divorced.

There’s a second responsive cheating, cheating effects aimed not at her, but at myself.

1. Restore my self-confidence, my masculinity. Show myself that I can, indeed, provide a sexually and emotionally satisfying experience.

2. Improve my security. Know that, if my WW took the next step and left me, I could find female companionship in the future.

3. Provide some sense of justice. If she could have the no-doubt pleasant experience of someone else, why not me? After all, our relationship is never going to be quite what either of us wanted.

Now, in this scenario, my wife would never know. It’s just for me. But it’s also a non-starter for me.

1. If I’m going to remain married to her, then my vows are still in force.

2. I’m sure I would feel disgusted during the planning, during the acts, afterwards.

3. What if I "catch" feelings? What if I catch a disease? What if the sex is better?

4. What if I get caught? I screw up; the AP screws up, etc.

So, no responsive cheating for me.

Hall Passes (I wonder, has a WH ever offered his BW a hall pass?)

If my WW had offered me a hall pass, I would have divorced. That would have told me that she just didn’t care.

And what would the hall pass be for? For me to visit a prostitute? It wasn’t just sex, for her. For me to pursue an emotional attachment to another woman? For me to fall in love with someone else?

To the extent she’s trying to level the playing field, it just wouldn’t work.

i’m wondering if the remorse had any dampening effect on the impact of the RA; not if that effect made any actual difference in the final outcome.

No I would say the initial impact relieved some of my remorseful feelings.

I believe that once you are remorseful it stays with you so it didn’t negate for me what I did was wrong or that I had hurt him.

But what it did was call a lot of things into question and make the remorse more nuanced:

-If I he believed affairs were wrong and he knew the pain that they inflict, then he must no longer love me or want this marriage.

-it felt to me his way of forcing my hand towards divorce.

-There was a sense at first that we were now even. Though I soon realized that it’s far more complex than that. But instead of me feeling like he had a moral superiority over me, I was done trying to prove my worth.

-if he was capable of it, and all the lying then he wasn’t the person I thought he was. In that way you do you as badly for hurting someone who just lied to you for 18 months? A lot of my remorse was based on his innocence.

All of this was just initial impact stuff, like things that cycled in the first six months or so. In many ways, it kind of at least temporarily dissolved some of my remorse. Certain pieces were replaced with anger and disillusionment. But I was able to go back and regain the idea he was innocent when I did what I did. And the pain he felt was directly impacted by me.

I have said this every way I know how- the only thing that dampened the impact is I knew affairs had dark aspects, painful aspects, and make believe land logic. I think I felt less threatened by it than a typical bs because I understood not just the fun and excitement but all the things that run just beneath that one is escaping from. Had I not done it first I would have been more inclined to feel threatened by it, that I couldn’t compete with it. But I knew from my own experience there is no such competition taking place.

Finally, given the complexities of your particular situation I think asking a slightly different question might work better: Instead of just remorse, take the sum total of all emotions(remorse, etc.), feelings(empathy for what he's going through, etc.), realizations(work done on your why's, etc.), and any other effect that you felt reduced the impact of the RA on you, due to the fact that you cheated first and felt sorry about having done so. How would you describe the potency of this total effect, low, moderate, high?

Somewhere just above low.

Given there was a three year gap and the relationship had been rebuilt significantly, the devastation that we actually went no where in that three years was very high. After all that pain and turmoil over the three years it finally felt like maybe we were going to be able to enjoy life a little more. We were planning a long term traveling trip that was to begin in a year, and I finally tentatively started feeling optimistic about our future. It felt like that had been ripped away, and we were back to ground zero.

About 18 months ago, I realized in order to give him more compassion over what he had done I had to find it for myself. And as I have done that I have finally been in a place to start releasing some of the anger and pain I was holding. In the end, I had been carrying not only the shame of what I did to him but allowing that to influence carrying the shame that I somehow still blamed myself for his affair.

As I honed in on my self compassion, I was able to open up my compassion towards him. So there have been many steps and epiphanies over the last nearly five years since his affair ended. This is estimated to be a normal bs healing time.

I have been happy during some of that time, I would say there were many great things that happened to enjoy in that five years. But there was always this dead part of me, that I think has just come back to life or had a regrowth in the last year or so. It’s been a long fucking eight years. And that’s why it’s hard to answer your direct questions with a direct answer. A lot of time has passed, I have grown new rings of understanding in that time. I am still growing them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:42 PM, Friday, February 14th]

DRSOOLERS,
I wish to compliment you on your question. It has provided many thought-provoking responses. I believe it is helpful to many people.

Hall passes and/or/vs revenge affairs.

I can offer many thoughts on both. But it always comes back to one way or another harming the Betrayed.

‘Two wrongs don’t make a right’, if ‘everyone jumped off of xxxx would you?’ on and on. (poorly quoting one of observations)

I heard it said, and I have tested this, what you do when no one, no way can see you is who you are.

Find a mirror and look back at the person looking at you. That is you.

Now I am a BH. The pain and disgust will never leave me. Someone is a fool in my opinion if they think it ever will. It subsides often now. I have forgiven my WW and it makes it easier. But it sucks on all levels. It hurts, 12 on scale of 10.

In addition, I have turned down many willing and attractive women (for all kind of adventures), not married, no strings attached. No one would know but me.

Back to the mirror and the concept of integrity. Not self-righteous bull, but what you do when no one knows, except you. You are always with you. (same for cheating spouses, they get their prize for life, they have mirrors as well)

Like returning money to the grocery clerk that gave you the wrong change in your favor. Even a penny. If you didn’t that it would hurt the store and clerk.

In the mirror the injured party would be, if I chose either of your options, (even though I have been injured by my WW’s betrayal) would be me.

Betrayal will never go away. It can be forgiven, overcome, repaired (mostly), grace is a great tool, but it can never be undone.

Why would I do that to me?

Just my thoughts.

Thank you for bearing with me, I think I understand you now.

But there was always this dead part of me, that I think has just come back to life or had a regrowth in the last year or so.

Now this is surprising given how introspective you are. Would you mind sharing a bit as to what it is? or a link to where you discuss it?

I think it boils down to all the loss. All the years of happiness we could have had. Holding back parts of my heart.

I read once that healing is not the absences of pain but our ability to let in other emotions. The deadness I am speaking of is the piece where you can’t quite stretch happiness or satisfaction into true joy. It’s almost like a ceiling that you can’t go through. It also happens with other emotions, the anger couldn’t go to rage.

So these things I believe just kind of feel stuck. Or absent. The alchemy of accepting the loss as well as replacing shame with self compassion, allowed me to open up again more fully and the feelings slowly grew to something more vivid.

I wrote the other day the movement of the anger is recent and I will go to the smash room or go somewhere and just scream, or evn axe throwing, things with physicality that allows me to release.

I am introspective, but I didn’t know what it was I was feeling or not feeling, just like more of a flatness to things that wouldn’t normally be that way for me. I thought it could be perimenopause, or just that maybe I was getting more jaded with age. It took time for me to work my way through all that.

@sisoon @hikingout
I do get the gist of what you guys are saying, but let me try another angle to understand your guys' idea of validation.

So while sissoon’s statement feels strict, I agree with it. It’s a statement about individual healing. I do think everyone enjoys validation and it’s something that adds joy to our experience. We just can’t have the validation others give us as our main nutrition source for our self esteem.

Here is hikingout's food analogy for validation. In real life food is a requirement and the undesirable scenario resulting from a shortfall of food is starvation or death. So naturally there must be some analogous undesirable scenario that you guys feel could and should be avoided by not requiring external validation. What is this undesirable scenario?

I read once that healing is not the absences of pain but our ability to let in other emotions. The deadness I am speaking of is the piece where you can’t quite stretch happiness or satisfaction into true joy. It’s almost like a ceiling that you can’t go through. It also happens with other emotions, the anger couldn’t go to rage.

This sounds kinda like the emotional blunting symptom of depression