SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hikingout: Thank you for your long explanatory post on 8/13. You helped me understand aspects of my wife's first and longest affair in ways that even my therapist did not pick up on. Thank you everyone, this thread has been a very insightful source for me.

The people that go looking for it, I believe are not really redeemable.

The people that "happen" into it...

This may be true, but how would anyone other than the WS know if they were "looking for it". After all this is largely based on the testimony of that person and this is an unprovable type of thing. So..

Although as a side note I've found certain forums, like R/AsOneAfterInfidelity, to be operated in a manner that seems quite unhealthy—almost cult-like in their environment. This is a topic worth exploring further because these groups often actively discourage dissenting opinions, particularly when the advice leans toward divorce as a viable option. It’s perplexing how these environments operate under the premise that divorce isn’t sometimes the healthier resolution for everyone involved.

It has to be a bit "cult-like" because it's on reddit. R/AsOneAfterInfidelity is the only pro-reconciliation space on reddit; practically all other subreddits, even ones that are only tangentially related to romantic relationships, have the universal default attitude that divorce is the only proper response in virtually all cases of infidelity. They even have something of a slogan for it: Get a divorce lawyer, delete facebook, hit the gym. As a result, the focus of R/AsOneAfterInfidelity is very narrow with tight moderation, otherwise hecklers from other subreddits would invade the space just to cause trouble.

This same dynamic also explains * deleted *, only shes on the other side of the issue. That website is very unapologetically anti-reconciliation because within the surviving infidelity industry(or what she calls the reconciliation industrial complex) she's the only cheerleader for BS's who decisively choose D (reddit and other places don't count because they're faceless hordes). All other sources either encourage or permit the possibility of R to one degree or another and so they soften their language towards WS to make R easier. The downside of this is that BS's can feel that their pain is being minimized even though they are the victim, so despite all the verbal showboating(or because of it) this website provides an important service to many BS's.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:32 PM, Sunday, February 16th]

Each situation is different but often there is sufficient evidence one way or the other. E.g. text message/email history. Though cheaters are prone to destroy evidence at discovery.

Full written timeline and polygraph has its purpose.

One potential cause of repeat affairs that I don't think has been mentioned is circumstances that are conducive to them.

My ex-wife was part of the management team at a half-way-house for ex-offenders. Round the clock cover was required and there was only five in the team, so spending evenings and nights at work were a regular and genuine aspect of every day life and made it easy for her to slip in extra, fictitious shifts. As the team members frequently swapped shifts with each other, often at short notice, it was almost impossible to spot any discrepancies between what she was actually working and what she claimed to be working. And if that wasn't enough, as whoever was on night shift was not expected to be up and about unless there was an incident they were provided with a bedroom, so she was even able to conduct her affairs while genuinely at work, being paid!

That enabled her to have a minimum of nine affairs in exactly three years of marriage! There were so many the exact number is difficult to pin down and I cannot believe she would have managed anything like that many had she been in a job with more conventional working hours and practices.

I only ever 'met' two of the men she slept with but, if they were typical, she obviously had a liking for 'a bit of rough' - which makes me wonder how many of the multitude she screwed were provided by the hostel.

The answer is true but it is more complicated in a way. What it means that if the same environment is created they have a probability of cheating. This is why those who do the work have a much lower probability.

It has to be a bit "cult-like" because it's on reddit. R/AsOneAfterInfidelity is the only pro-reconciliation space on reddit; practically all other subreddits, even ones that are only tangentially related to romantic relationships, have the universal default attitude that divorce is the only proper response in virtually all cases of infidelity.

Whilst understanding of this, I don't think the reasonable resolution is to create an echo chamber that encourages people to remain in toxic situations at all costs. You can moderate the sub in a reasonable way by monitoring if the recommendations being made are reasonable or not.

Sometimes you read the cases on there and any reasonable person would suggest it's time for a divorce and that opinion cannot be shared. I think it's very dangerous quite frankly.

It also begs the question why is societies view so knee jerk towards divorce over reconciliation. A million dollar question I suppose.

It's also very interesting why moderation removed your reference? Any idea of why? Some site rule I'm not aware of? Many people have citied that author as being incredibly helpful in moving past betrayal, yet I see a full chain on Esther Perel who seems to be equally extreme just on the other end of the spectrum and her name doesn't appear as redacted.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:22 AM, Monday, February 17th]

Whilst understanding of this, I don't think the reasonable resolution is to create an echo chamber that encourages people to remain in toxic situations at all costs. You can moderate the sub in a reasonable way by monitoring if the recommendations being made are reasonable or not.

Sometimes you read the cases on there and any reasonable person would suggest it's time for a divorce and that opinion cannot be shared. I think it's very dangerous quite frankly.

They do share that opinion, just not in a "divorce your wayward immediately!" kind of manner. It's more along the lines of:
Your wayward isn't remorseful
You can't R alone
You don't seem to be in real R
You have to heal yourself and it might be that the only way for you to do that is to leave

They're cult-like in discussion boundaries but they aren't an actual cult. They have a bias but they aren't morally self-righteous about it nor do they evangelize. They don't seek to isolate their members. They permit and often times encourage their members to help/info from other places.

Keep in mind sometimes the people posting are doing so to vent. They may want to divorce but they can't because of money, disabilities, or other life circumstances so they're looking for some support.

It also begs the question why is societies view so knee jerk towards divorce over reconciliation. A million dollar question I suppose.

R is seen as capitulating to the perpetrator and also encouraging the bad behavior. D is seen the only real consequence that can be levied against one of the worst betrayals and acts of abuse in human experience. D *seems* to have a better success rate than R at helping the betrayed move on from infidelity, i.e. "You never hear about someone regretting divorcing a cheater, but you'll often hear people regretting reconciling with a cheater, sometimes even decades later." R has at times involved some rather sketchy if not outright unethical ideas in the past and the present. E.g. Church counselors being more interested in preventing D than in encouraging healthy R, "unmet needs" standards by MC's, MC's wanting to work on the marriage before addressing the cheating, "just take it to your grave", etc.

@any moderator watching
The guidelines say to PM to ask about staff actions, but I don't have PM privileges yet, so how should I go about asking about a staff action?

@mardandra

Opening a 'mod, please' thread gets attention. I'd PM you but I don't know how long I'll be on at this point.

*****

R is seen as capitulating to the perpetrator and also encouraging the bad behavior. D is seen the only real consequence that can be levied against one of the worst betrayals and acts of abuse in human experience.

I think we're brought up to retaliate when hurt, and dump a cheater is about all one can do without risking a jail sentence.

I spent 15 of my first 18 years fighting with my brother. College taught me 2 wrongs don't make a right. I didn't see my W's A as an attack on me, so I didn't feel a giant need to retaliate. I WAS hurt, of course, as collateral damage, so I did not accept the A with the equanimity that developed over the years.

D *seems* to have a better success rate than R at helping the betrayed move on from infidelity, i.e. "You never hear about someone regretting divorcing a cheater, but you'll often hear people regretting reconciling with a cheater, sometimes even decades later."

Define 'success'.

D as a reaction is quicker than R, and it's usually quicker than thinking about what one wants before acting. IMO, though, a lot of people who have split think splitting is enough, and it's not. Just as a BS in R has to deal with their pain, so does a BS who has D'ed has to deal with their pain of being betrayed.

A lot of people who have split don't deal with their pain. That, IMO, may very well be what is going on with the D-in-all-cases folks and the folks who assert that suggesting a new BS consider R is 'pro R'.

I think 'success' is probably related to something like 'regaining the ability the whole range of feelings that human beings feel - glad, sad, mad, scared, ashamed, desire, love....' Regaining that ability is, IMO, a result of the work people do more than what they do with the relationship inwhich they were betrayed.

Attlas: There are indeed a number of professional fields in which the physical environment lends itself to infidelity. In particular, the medical profession, especially in hospital settings seems to offer a wide range of opportunities on the premises with empty patient rooms, storage rooms, supply rooms and the good old standby of the ER doctors and Residents on-call bedrooms. For the longest time I had not the slightest clue that my wife and other RN's were screwing doctors in the hospital in private accommodations just down the hall from the ER where a complete self contained apartment with two bedrooms, A bathroom, office, kitchenette and living room with tv and comfortable easy chairs was at the disposal of anybody in need of a place to cheat.
Don't underestimate either the persuasive influence of being surrounded also by other staff and coworkers who were cheating. In the ER at my wife's hospital, all four other nurses on her shift, two of whom were married were engaged in very sexual relationships with doctors/surgeons. One incidentally, one of the ludicrous excuses my cheating wife tried to float was that she hadn't tired of the affair she was involved in was the status it gave her to have been targeted by the senior surgical resident with whom she continued the affair after he entered private practice almost two years later. The urge to compete in.promiscuity was way off the charts in that den of iniquity! And yet...here we are 52 years later..moving slowly towards reconciliation..

"Compete in promiscuity".
Wonderful phrase! Duly noted and filed for future use. Thank you!

Many, many years ago I worked with someone whose previous employment had been in the hotel industry. From comments he made it was clear that is another field where the phrase could be applied.

Then some time later, my then-partner was briefly the evening supervisor at a roadside diner that had an attached motel. One night the motel's night manager failed to appear and my ex-partner was asked to cover for her until a relief manager could get there. Within minutes she had realised the missing manager had been running the place as a kind of amateur brothel with considerable success and often turned a trick or two herself when demand exceeded supply! Worryingly, the woman's 16 year-old daughter was employed as a cleaner at the motel. My ex left it to the relief manager to investigate exactly what the girls 'duties' entailed and in the process of doing that he discovered that several of the diner's staff 'helped out' on a regular basis.
My ex quit shortly afterwards.

@sisoon

Further to your response, do you know why mardandra's referenced author was redacted? As previously stated, many people have citied that author as being incredibly helpful in moving past betrayal. Especially for BS who chose D as opposed to R. Especially given my understanding that this forum views and supports both outcomes as viable.

I think this choice, unless something is going on in the background I'm unaware of, is strange given Esther Perel references seem to be fine?

Both the referenced author and Esther Perel seem to me to be two extremes of the spectrum. Why is the extreme stance of R more acceptable than the extreme stance of D?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:40 AM, Tuesday, February 18th]

Prior to last Friday, I would say I hated this expression, and it was pessimistic and coming from someone who doesn’t believe in healing. As you may remember, my husband was the "poster boy of infidelity" he did everything right and supported my healing for a year but last Friday I found two escorts and more on his computer so I don’t know what I believe anymore. We are separated and I’ve contacted a lawyer.

I suggest people regularly go over the Guidelines.

For example, number 10 that says: STAFF ACTIONS: If you have a question regarding a staff action bring it to our attention by using the Private Message feature. Do not question staff actions on the public forums.

All I can say regarding the author that was removed is that if you try to post using that authors "name" you do get a warning letting you know all references to that author are forbidden. I guess if you want to you can bypass that by putting a hyphen mid-name, but it should be clear to the person doing so that they are bypassing a request from the moderators of this site.

DRSOOLERS

do you know why mardandra's referenced author was redacted?

I remember a couple years ago reading something on this site about there having been something like some dispute with that author, and that an agreement was reached between this site and that author that they would not reference each other on their respective sites.

I understand not arguing with moderators in open forums, but why can't it just be stated that an agreement exist (if that is correct), and that author should not be referenced? Making it some kind of hush, hush secret just sows disturst and confusion. Note, I am not trying to criticize, just making a suggestion. Also note, I may be wrong or my memory may be faulty..

Back to the topic at hand... "Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater"???

Thought often about that. Not sure if that is "totally" true or not.

I am not talking about ONS here, but I have read and heard that people who are serial cheaters or who get into longer term affairs have had their brain chemicals hacked... that their dopamine and other feel good brain chemicals go into overdrive, just like with drugs. That they keep going back for more and start engaging in riskier activities to get even more of those feel good chemicals... activities like having public sex, etc.

All of my siblings have passed away except for a younger sibling. My second older deceased brother would be classified as one form of an alcoholic... maybe a "dry" alcoholic. He could go days, weeks, months, even years without a drink, and then one day out of the seemingly blue he would go on a bender and wouldn't be seen or heard from for days. Guess the pressure to get whatever pleasure he derived from drinking got to be too great for him to resist.

I saw a video recently by a private detective. She made the video to inform those about to marry on how to vet if their intended spouse might cheat. She said that the FBI used three criteria for whether a person would commit a crime... "Pressure", "Opportunity", and "Rationalization".

The first one "Pressure". She says how a person responds to pressure says an awful lot about them. Say a person has a really bad day at work. They go home and what do they do to relieve the pressure? Do they pour themselves a drink or two or more? Or, instead do they put on their running shoes and go for a run, or engage in a hobby such as painting? If they give in to instant gratification in an unhealthy manner to relieve this pressure, she said that their intended spouse might think long and hard before tying the knot.

The third one of "Rationalization" is interesting to me. I know I have used it myself in my life when I tried to justify doing something I should not have done. The brother I spoke about above told me once when we attended a funeral that he had begun going to AA meetings "even though I am not an alcoholic". That was some strong rationalization from my alcoholic brother.

The following is not a really good example of comparing something to cheating, but I will give it anyway to describe the factors of "Pressure", "Opportunity", and "Rationalization".

I used to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. I started smoking when I was a teenager. I remember the first thing I would do when I awoke was reach for a cigarette. On April 15, 1975 I quit. I did not smoke another cigarette until January 2, 1980. It seems that on January 1, 1980 our father had a massive stroke that put him in a coma from which he never recovered. He died 4 days later. I remember sitting in the waiting room with one of my siblings. They were smoking. Almost unthinking I reached over and took a cigarette from their pack and lit it. Got a wonderful feeling. It wasn't more than 30 minutes later I was putting some coins in a vending machine and getting my own pack of cigarettes. The doctors had told us he only had a few hours to live. I "Rationalized" to myself that I would only smoke to relieve the pressure of getting through this one particular situation... funeral, etc... and then I would never smoke again.

But, I was "hooked" again to the feel good chemicals in my brain. It only took one cigarette and I was hooked. Now then, as an ex-smoker it only took one for me personally to once again begin smoking. I lied to myself and "Rationalized" how it would take the pressure off the coming days and since I had been "so good" for almost 5 years, I deserved to do this to feel better.

I am sure that someone who had never smoked before would not become a confirmed smoker by smoking their first cigarette (One Night Stand). It might be that instead of making them feel good, that cigarette might make them feel sick and they end up greatly ashamed and regretful. We sometimes see and hear stories of people who have a One Night Stand and feel so ashamed they immediately confess and throw themselves on the mercy of their partner. I personally believe that there is a good chance that such a person will never cheat again.

However, as someone who had smoked for many years, it took me over 3 years to quit again and get off of those cigarettes. I haven't smoked since September 25, 1983. It is now been over 41 years since I put a cigarette in my mouth. I do know from past experience that it will take only one cigarette for me to begin smoking again. Do I miss smoking? Sometimes when things are going bad I might think that a cigarette would be good about right now.

The question is am I now a "dry" smoker? Am I still a "smoker"? I do know that I am totally unlike someone who has never smoked before. A person who gets disgusted with themselves for smoking just one cigarette is like someone who gets drunk and has a one night stand, and then has enough self esteem and character to never do it again.

Anyway, I am still undecided with my own views on this subject. I guess that for myself personally I have come to believe that someone who has a ONS and instantly regrets it is probably redeemable; however, someone who has cheated over and over again is going to have great difficulty to never cheat again, especially when the "Pressure" and "Opportunity" presents itself again. However, my views are subject to change.

Just my opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 6:43 PM, Thursday, February 20th]

I find what you said interesting and likely true.

I think the part that might be missing is some people will start running and the next time run instead of smoke. It takes a concerted effort to face things head on and have healthy outlets to relieve pressure.

I also think it’s hard to relate a smoking addiction to what I say next so I am changing the scenario to alcoholism. The reason is people who have been alcoholics have likely deteriorated relationships, family, work, home, etc due to their habits. So there is the extra part of being responsible to the other people in your life. I do not think we can hinge our success in not engaging with alcohol on not hurting other people- but for me the precipitation for not having an affair is not only is it bad for me, I do not wish to be the reason behind other peoples trauma. That’s a who I want to be versus just not wanting to hurt others. I am not sure I am

Making the distinction here well.

That’s why I think a serial cheater who has been caught may have as much chance at recovery as someone like me who had one short lived affair mostly conducted from afar. I believe that the consequences are harder to ignore, and the reality of what it does to you and to your spouse and your family can be enough to say "I have a problem here and I need to get to the root of it". It maybe a lot harder to reconcile with a serial cheater, but that doesn’t put a ceiling in their ability to grow and change. (Though I think some have extra stuff going on like the absence of the ability to feel guilt)

It’s funny, I too have been an intermittent smoker. The first time I quit was because my husband and I got serious and he said he didn’t want to marry a smoker. I picked it up again and gave it up when I discovered I was pregnant. I didn’t do it again until I could not cope with the aftermath of my affair. And all the other times I quit, it was a hard drawn out process. But this last time, it was immediate, easy and never had the urge or remote desire to do it again. Even the withdrawal was the short lived physical part and it barely bothered me. I don’t know if that’s due to healing that psychological part or what happened but it was very different. Maybe because the other times it was for someone else, and this time it was truly for me.

So I think that a dry drink or a dry smoker still has the urges. Someone who has healed that place of need with healthier outlooks and habits aren’t white knuckling anything. I feel that having a satisfying, loving connected relationship is so much more fulfilling. I feel living wholesomely and protecting my happiness beats being sneaky and sick, and I feel that my coping now relies on such a different outlook on myself and my problems that it’s not a dry-cheater feeling. It feels more like I am living my best life, even when times are hard I can persevere and appreciate my resilience where as before my tendency was to put my head in the sand.

In the aftermath of finding out about my husbands affair, I was probably the most unsteady in my life, but never once did I think the solution was to go find solace in someone else. No itch, nothing. In fact, I was more of the mindset I was done with relationships for the foreseeable future.

I do not qualify really to speak for serial cheaters. However, I believe my brain chemistry in an affair was clearly that of an addict. I do not question that for a single minute. I believe had I not had such a fallout the first time that I could have gone on to seek that feeling again. In fact, during the period I was contemplating my confession, I had this fleeting thought of the confession shutting down the ability to experience this feeling in the future. Escapism requires a lot of denial that could no longer be ignored if I told him about it. In the end, that isn’t the path I chose. However, I think there are serial cheaters who are caught and still unwilling to make the changes inside themselves just like someone with a short term affair could be unwilling.

I think the simple truth is it boils down to who a person decides to be and the pain of staying where you are is worse than the pain of the change itself. When motivated to be a person who doesn’t do these things period because that’s not who they want to be versus a person who agrees to make a sacrifice to stay married- that’s to me the difference on recurrences or relapses. Some alcoholic don’t miss it. Some do. I don’t think every recovered person has the urge because their reasons and purposes are stronger. And I think if I can cure my addictions so can someone who had multiple affairs in the past.

The issue is knowing which one you are married to and there is no solid guide for that. Other than, if they do not seem gobsmacked by what they did, and you do not see motivation to be not just a better spouse but a better person, that’s more black and white than people often want it to be. Another clue is all their relationships became stronger. They can handle so much more. A ws who shys away from discussions is another. Once I set out to do what was needed, you couldn’t stop me from talking about it. I am still here talking about it. Which maybe that’s the difference between someone who goes to AA partially to help and partially to reinforce that dedication. The clues are always there if you can read them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:39 PM, Wednesday, February 19th]