SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

LowTide

Apologies if this has been already asked and answered, but have you considered having your W take a polygraph test? It could go a long way in easing your mind.

Low Tide,

I hate that you have experienced this and remain tormented by it. I almost wish I hadn't read your story, but I did, and one thought for you to consider is that the firmness of your commitment to remain married is directly related to your wife's unwillingness to give you what you need. Your comfort, mental health, and stability haven't proven to be significant enough for her to help you, sadly.

That hurts me to write, and I'm sure it hurts you tremendously to know, but years of her lying have made this an undeniable fact. Knowing you will remain married to her while she ducks and dodges truth leaves her without sufficient incentive to change anything.

She knows you are with her regardless, so why would she choose to muster up the courage when she doesn't need to? In her eyes, the cost stemming from the truth doesn't benefit her. She has your love, affection, and heart already, without having to change, so why would she?

This is the cold reality, I'm sure you have come to realize, and somewhat related to what your psychiatrist indicated when he cited some of your challenges may come from not accepting the reality of your decision to stay with her years ago.

Life is worth living, and I hope peace and happiness find you once again. It can happen.

Low tide,

Assume the worst. For all your questions, whatever the worst answer is, make that your reality (it likely is the reality). And then decide if you can continue to live with her.

Why does she lie, change her story? Well, she probably started by trying to protect herself, or you.

At this point, she probably can’t keep up with all the nonsense. And over the years, her vision of what she did, who she was, why, has probably changed. Maybe a lot. She may not be so sure of what reality is, or was, anymore.

We hear a lot that WWs "rewrite" the marriage to justify the affair. Perhaps they also "rewrite" the affair, for the same reason. To feel better about themselves. Nobody wants to be the villain in their own story.

Did she love you then? Did she love him then? Forget about it.

Does she love you now? That’s what matters.

Best wishes.

well it’s not that often I see someone who has been with thier wife this long. I met my wife when she was 15 and I was 16. She cheated on and off throughout our marriage. My wife pulls the same detail stunts. It’s gaslighting and trickle truth. It’s her way of rationalizing that she knows best. She knows what you can handle. What you need to know. She’s compartmentalizing it to absolve her guilt and keep the status quo. My wife quit talking about details. I hated her for it. Still do when I think of those events. You have to come to peace with this simple fact. Unless you have a movie camera in the room from different directions filming the whole thing you will NEVER know the full truth. Like a cop coming up to a crash site you have to take the facts and draw your own conclusion. She can say whatever she likes , create whatever reality she needs to justify her actions. But you need to draw your own conclusions and remember that naive blind trust is a stupid myth we were led to believe. You have had your eyes opened. I found that really hard to navigate. Trust but verify. Truer words have not been spoken.

I don’t post often, but might have something to offer here.

Briefly, married 50 years now. He has had 7 affairs according to the most recent DDay and his "full truth" in June 2024.

The changing story of the affair hits home.

In 1977, I found a note from "Leslie" in his guitar case. It said "Thank you for the beautiful evening. Love, Leslie."

First of all, HE KEPT THE NOTE, which told me a lot. Leslie was the sister of his very close bandmate.

So I asked what it was about. He denied anything of importance, and said she was going through a rough time and they talked.

I asked about sex, kissing…anything. I was suspicious. He denied anything of the kind, but deep inside I knew he was lying.

A few months later, he walked out on me and our baby. He said, "I don’t love you, I never loved you, and I never will love you." We were NOT fighting, we really never have. There were no disagreements. There were no sexual issues. At the time and even now, this event was rooted in his working in bars all the time as a musician, with women hitting on him. He wanted to be free for all of that "action".

When he returned a few months later, he immediately cheated with two other women. One I caught, and one he kept secret for over 40 years.

When he cheated with the one I found out about, I asked for confession. I asked AGAIN about Leslie. He still denied. This was in 1978.

Fast forward and in 2005 I again catch him cheating. In his "confessions" he never told me about the secret AP from 1978. And I specifically asked about Leslie again.

He said nothing happened. I was paranoid.

I also asked about other women in our lives, including my neighbor. He denied everything.

Then, I discovered an online EA in 2023, and it had been going on for at least 3 years. Probably more. He couldn’t deny much about the EA because I called that woman, and had all the texts and emails and photos and everything. I demanded full confession of EVERY OTHER WOMAN or I would leave.

He realized I was about to leave. At first, he and Leslie "only kissed". That story was a lie, and I called him on it. I also found a letter he wrote to his EA partner years before they became "lovers", and in it he mentioned her sister. From what he said, I knew he slept with the sister.

I confronted him and his eyes about popped out of his head. He confessed, but minimized.

I refused to believe him. So he trickle truthed. He finally came clean on the sister, but changed the story on Leslie.

"It was oral sex, one time, because she didn’t want to get pregnant." He stuck with that for a YEAR.

But I knew it was a lie.

I finally had enough, and was packing my car. He begged me to hear the truth.

It was "oral sex once, full sex a second time". And he told me he slept with the neighbor twice, and he minimized that.

I have no idea what the actual truth is. And it affects me every single day.

People want to know the truth of their lives. And I think our spouses owe us that much.

I remain so appreciative of the feedback from a bright, diverse group of people who have all walked some version of the path of surviving betrayal.

I've been speaking with my psychiatrist and my wife in marital therapy every week. I feel fortunate that he knows me and what I need to know to heal and move forward.

I also came across an article on the National Center for Emotional Wellness site that speaks directly to me. I'm wondering if others have seen it and if you agree with the sentiments expressed about the importance of knowing the TRUTH.

Thank you all so much for helping me on this journey of healing.

Good evening, friends.

I took a break from posting because I found it painful to focus on this dreaded topic.

Since my last post, my wife and I have begun marital sessions with my psychiatrist, who is providing a safe place for her to share the truth of her infidelity, starting from the beginning. I have been doing better because I'm not beating myself up with very negative self-talk (e.g., "I want to die. I wish I would die. Please, take me, etc.) I apologize if I'm causing anyone distress or triggering any discomfort in others. However, putting an immediate stop to those self-statements has helped me to feel better.

For some reason, tonight I'm feeling scared. We have a scheduled session tomorrow morning. There's a part of me that believes I'm going to hear something so egregious I simply won't be able to handle it—not that I can fathom anything worse than I already know.

Is this a feeling you have experienced, and how did you cope with it?

Thank you.

Knowing more truth is hard, especially if your imagination has been working overtime for years trying to fill in details.

I had always known something had gone wrong with the family ‘friend’ years before my wife’s very limited confession.

I eventually got most of the truth and as noted before, I tend to assume the worst about the bits long forgotten by my wife.

For me, getting some real answers about the time stolen away from our M was more helpful than hurtful, because I didn’t have to guess or wonder anymore.

If you do get more info, it will still be a shock and yet, you’ve imagined some pretty horrible things along the way, and that prepares you more than you think.

It was critical to me to know what I was being asked to overcome.

Makes good sense. Thank you.

Lowtide,

For some reason, tonight I'm feeling scared. We have a scheduled session tomorrow morning. There's a part of me that believes I'm going to hear something so egregious I simply won't be able to handle it—not that I can fathom anything worse than I already know.
Is this a feeling you have experienced, and how did you cope with it?

Yes, these are feelings that many of us have experienced.
There is a strong possibility that you will hear things that are equally or not even more "egregious" as the therapist gets your wife deeper into the weeds of the why’s of her betrayal.

We are here to help you, each other, and ourselves as we trod this pain riddled, sterile landscape. We’ve got your back, my friend.

Asterisk

I know when I asked new questions my heart would go 150 bpm anticipating the answers. Most of the time it really wasn't that bad, but there were a few that cut me more than I anticipated. I processed them, tho, and we're on the road to recovery. It might not be a bad idea to think about what could be too much to hear. There are some pieces of info I wish I hadn't heard.

The worst thing about different versions not matching up isn't so much feeling duped over and over again by BS, but rather deducing that the WS is lying to themselves or to the IC, which means the introspection necessary for "healing" will never work.
There are many people with very peculiar, abstract, and imprecise language (especially in verb tenses and exaggerated adjectives), where desires and other fantasies merge with reality... it makes me very nervous.

Thank you all so much for being there for me. I am sharing a letter I wrote to my psychiatrist of 7 years, after our 3rd marital session today. I have redacted all identifying information and should note that the doctor said to "Stay off discussion forums about infidelity." I would like and appreciate your honest feedback, as I feel like I'm losing it.

Good afternoon, Dr. S..

Thank you for seeing M. and me today.

During our last session, after M. disclosed being intimate with D. weeks before our wedding day—and for years thereafter, you proffered that "People had different partners in years past"—and that, "We know that M. had an affair." As I wrote to you (below) and explained on the phone after the session, this was not that simple or acceptable to me. You graciously apologized for the statement.

For decades, M. has maintained that her infidelity began during "an exciting time" in her life—being with recent college graduates at a new job, and having the attention of a "good-looking, funny guy" with whom she felt attraction.

Today, when you inquired why M. became intimate with D., M. again changed the narrative—and spoke of being "unhappy" at the time. I calmly noted that this was yet another example of M.’s changing stories—the proximate cause of my painful obsessions and rumination—while trying to understand the reality of my marriage. M. then attempted to undo her statement, indicating that she was unhappy with her career choice.

After I asserted that in order for me to cope with M.’s infidelity, I needed to hear the truth—a consistent narrative—you responded with a shocking statement: "You are torturing her."

Dr. S., these words were egregiously inappropriate, invalidating, and inconsistent with the standard of care in the aftermath of infidelity. Evidence-based treatment emphasizes that honesty, transparency, and consistency of narrative are foundational for healing and rebuilding trust.

Your characterization today further invalidated my painful ongoing experience and was inconsistent with widely recognized literature. I expected, and continue to need, evidence-based care grounded in truth, transparency, and accountability. Instead, your response left me feeling undermined, dismissed, and abandoned at a critical point in our marital therapy.

I also find it important to note that while my responses to your assignment were scrutinized, M.’s responses were never mentioned. In the context of infidelity, enabling the withholding or distortion of truth is akin to enabling ongoing betrayal.

While I have provided M. with over a dozen articles emphasizing the need for truth and honesty, I will only share the attached with you, as it resonates deeply with me.

I appreciate that you have opened the door to a constructive dialogue regarding M.’s infidelity. However, continuing to enable or overlook inconsistencies in her narrative is more destructive to my healing than confronting the painful truth itself.

At this time, M. and I will work on our issues together in the calm and loving environment of our new home. I would like to continue seeing you solely for medicine management, as I remain confident with the pharmacotherapeutic regimen you have maintained.

Please let me know when you would like to meet with me again for this purpose, either virtually or in person.

Thank you, Dr. S..

Respectfully,

Low Tide,

I thought your letter was great. I only have 2 concerns:

(1) you don’t need to discuss this further with therapist. You made your decision now stick with it.

(2) I highly recommend that you find a new therapist to help you with your meds. Your therapist is not going the kindly to be told they don’t know how to do their job (even though you’re 100% correct) and you can’t really trust them with your care going forward. Also, the best way to send a message to any business is to not do business with them in the future.

I agree that you should find another person to manage medication issues and needs.

Being in the middle of trickle truthing is unbearable, and this therapist seems to be glossing over your needs.

Great job low tide!

I don't see inconsistency in your W's responses. The om's attention was probably exciting, and she was probably unhappy. I think it's entirely possible, even likely, that one aspect is mentioned at one moment and another is mentioned 1st in another context.

Will you outline a few more inconsistencies?

*****

I agree you can probably find a better therapist, one who has trained in clinical psych or one of the major modalities.

To begin, psychiatrists think first about meds; that's how they're trained. You may get more benefit something different - EMDR, Gestalt, TA, CBT, etc. Tapping may be useful.

I also recommend looking for someone who sees benefit in the peer counseling available in an online forum that does not focus on one outcome or another. In your shoes, for example, I'd avoid a forum in which those who preach D or R are the loudest voices.

Therapists can do things peer counseling can't do. Peer counseling can do things therapy can't.

*****

My reading of your posts is that you don't comprehend how much power is in your hands.

For example, why let your shrink invalidate what you think? Why accuse him of 'invalidating' you? Why noy say to yourself that he doesn't support you, so you're going someplace else?

Another example: Why hide behind, 'Evidence-based treatment emphasizes that honesty, transparency, and consistency of narrative are foundational for healing and rebuilding trust.'

There's also a widely held theory that BSes should move on without going into too much detail. Shirley Glass and Peggy Vaughan have anecdotal data showing that the more info about the A is given to the BS, the better the outcome, but it's just anecdotal.

Further, you seem to be ignoring the fact that you being decide for yourself when and if your W has earned back trust. You can do that now. You can decide she has to do more to earn it back. The problem may be in you (which I think your example shows), but it could be in her (which I expect is where it lies).

But you, and no one else, choose when and if to trust her.

(I interrogated my W for hours every day for weeks after d-day, so I get the need for data. I thought I got totally consistent answers, but then I don't see that 'exciting' and 'unhappy' are necessarily different. )

*****

IMO - it's my opinion because I was taught this by several therapists - rumination is a result of self-talk and not understanding or not wanting to face feelings. For me, the way out of ruminating is to ask myself, 'What am I feeling?' until I get the right answers. Then I can feel the feelings, which lets them go. Then I have no reason to ruminate, until the next time.

I know that's a lot easier to say than to do. I went through cycles of learning the process, leaving therapy, then starting the rumination again, restarting therapy, rinse, repeat. But it's what worked for me.

It doesn't work for my W - or, rather, my W has a different way out of rumination, one that she hasn't explained to me.

*****

IMO, you decide when and if you stop ruminating. You have to decide/recognize you have that power.

Alas, that means you need to figure out what you need to do to exercise your power. You've been relying on meds for years, and that hasn't worked. It's past time to change. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying the responsibility is yours - and it goes almost without saying that you have the strength to do it, IMO.

The questions below are the ones that help me. Has anyone asked you questions like:

What are you afraid of?

What are you sad about?

What are you angry about?

How have/do you answered those questions?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:44 PM, Thursday, September 25th]

First, thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. I'm finding this forum incredibly helpful—knowing how you have navigated your storms.

Sisoon, you posed some provocative questions. And, I am going to dare to be brutally honest and will likely frustrate some of you.

What are you afraid of? Being alone and not being with the only girl I have ever been with since she was 15 and I was 17. I remain deeply in love with her. I meant my wedding vows, and they meant nothing to her. I am an honest and loving husband who gave my heart to her, and now I'm dying from the pain of betrayal—ongoing lies.

What are you angry about? That my wife doesn't understand or appreciate the need for me to know the truth—reality. Instead, I have heard changing narratives for over 25 years. She has trickled me to death—and continues to do so.

My psychiatrist has told me that divorce must be on the table, that people years ago were with many partners, that my continuing to point out her gross inconsistencies was "torturing" her, and so on. He is not an expert in living my life and has no right to invalidate my beliefs!

Here, with peers, I'm finding honesty. Which is all I am asking for. And I thank you for that. No wonder he told me to stay away from Surviving Infidelity forums.

My psychiatrist has told me that divorce must be on the table

Your psychiatrist and almost every single person who has participated in both of your threads. This is advice born from many, many years of combined experience. There is a reason people keep telling you this. I fear you have locked yourself into an almost impossible position.

Let me ask other questions, then.

What are you willing to do to improve your life?

What do you want your W to to do? Will that really be enough? What if this is the best your W can do?

How does your shrink invalidate your beliefs? I believe part of a therapist's job is to make you question your beliefs - the therapists I know are trained to do exactly that, because their theory says our emotional problems stem from our inaccurate beliefs about ourselves. Suppose they're right about that, as I believe, based on what I've seen and done?

Besides, how can someone invalidate your beliefs without your consent?

I believe you've set impossible limits for yourself. The sooner you change those limits, the sooner you'll heal.

What are you afraid of? Being alone and not being with the only girl I have ever been with since she was 15 and I was 17. I remain deeply in love with her. I meant my wedding vows, and they meant nothing to her. I am an honest and loving husband who gave my heart to her, and now I'm dying from the pain of betrayal—ongoing lies.

What are you angry about? That my wife doesn't understand or appreciate the need for me to know the truth—reality. Instead, I have heard changing narratives for over 25 years. She has trickled me to death—and continues to do so.

We all know about dying a little when we are betrayed by the person we love. I do not mean to minimize that. We are shoulders you can cry on without fear of reproof. No one will think less of you for crying or lamenting.

No one will criticize you for wanting justice.

I would point out 1) that there is no justice commensurate with the betrayal; 2) that D provides a measure of justice, but not much; 3) that D can't be accomplished without great discomfort to the BS, and the BS should make their life as comfortable and as pleasurable and as possible; 4) that a BS who holds on to a desire for justice, especially without D, damages oneself more than they damage anyone else; 5) that giving up the desire for justice benefits the BS more than it benefits anyone else.

I believe you've closed down all your offramps. You're waiting for someone else to change. I just haven't seen that work. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever seen that work.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:37 PM, Friday, September 26th]